Saturday, July 3, 2010
Environment Ark. senators block cap and trade
Posted by Max Brantley on Sat, Jul 3, 2010 at 6:37 AM
John Brummett endeavors to explain cap and trade legislation and the shaky ground on which Sens. Blanche Lincoln and Mark Pryor stand as likely impediments to passage.
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Comments (41)
Showing 1-41 of 41
I'm pretty much against cap & trade.
I see it as another way for Wall Street to play casino capitalism again.
I am surprised Senators Lincoln and Pryor are not for it since it benefits Wall Street.
I'd much rather see legislation that requires us to cut our emission and provides funding for renewable energy and mass transit.
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Pryor and Lincoln want to take another bad ponzi scheme and make it worse. Just like Ross played the health insurance looting bill game.
Arkansas Nesteabagging Democrats... all of them.
SocialistArkie may be on the right track. The opposition of Lincoln and Pryor to cap and trade legislation could be a case of "the greatest treason: To do the right deed for the wrong reason." As Mark Shapiro has put it, "...unlike traditional commodities, which sometimes during the course of their market exchange must be delivered to someone in physical form, the carbon market is based on the lack of delivery of an invisible substance to no one." (http://www.harpers.org/archive/2010/02/008…)
Shapiro concludes his article thusly: "Indeed, carbon exists as a commodity only through the decisions of politicians and bureaucrats, who determine both the demand, by setting emissions limits, and the supply, by establishing criteria for offsets. It was the United States that sculpted the cap-and-trade system during the Kyoto negotiations, before pulling out of the accord and leaving the rest of the world to implement the scheme. Since then, most of the world’s major political, financial, and environmental interests have aligned themselves with the idea, because of its potential to generate profits out of adversity and to avoid the difficult economic decisions posed by climate change. Now the Obama Administration and the Democratic Congress—along with most American companies, which see cap-and-trade as the friendliest regulation they could hope for—want to rejoin the world and multiply the market. That market is, in essence, an elaborate shell game, a disappearing act that nicely serves the immediate interests of the world’s governments but fails to meet the challenges of our looming environmental crisis."
A carbon tax is likely the most effective weapon against the looming environmental disaster, but good luck on that.
If you want to increase the cost of energy for EVERYONE then you should support cap n tax. If you want to increase the costs to business and think that will result in increased hiring then you should support cap n tax. If you think that the vast majority of Arkansans and Americans was increased cost of energy and fewer jobs then you are naive.
If you want to see Arkansas' agriculture business die to to continued temperature rises and reduce rainfall while we have to figure out how to save all the coastal cities from flooding due to rising seas while we have a lot more category 5 hurricanes and F5 tornadoes hitting us from the Gulf, then certainly don't worry or do anything about global warming.
It will be another case of ducking the hard work on a problem and leaving it to your grandkids to grow gills. Harvey's approach has worked so well on healthcare, Medicare, and Social Security. We have perfected the "kick the problem down the road" approach to fixing a lot of things. We don't elected leaders, we elect politicans in the worse sense of the word.
Just think of it this way. The guys who lost this country 3 million jobs since taking office are pushing cap n tax. Think about it.
Let's just remember who brought us medicare, medicaid and social security. They ALL are going broke and will probably cause the bankruptcy of this nation. The fraud and waste from medicare and medicaid have existed since these programs were created. Their costs have FAR exceeded the estimates when they were created. They have NOT reduced the cost of heath care. All of this and you want us to have confidence in the government that created them?
They are not all going broke. Where are your links of proof/evidence of such claims? No teabagger has ever given one credible bit of data to backup such claims.
Where there are troubles it all boils down to a few things.
Class warfare.
Idiotic Chicago School economic schemes... which have always helped rich people destroy countries. (Read - The Shock Doctrine)
Refusing to look at 35 plus countries who do better than us on health, costs, etc. All with serious limitations on profiteers and some sort of Socialized medicine.
And Harvey's tea-choice of politicians who are hell bent on serving the rich while making social programs look bad (even if they have to lie to do so) as a means of self fulfilling prophecy instead of doing yeoman's work for common good.
Just because the Harveys of the world can't stand the fact both teams D & R are doing exactly what he wants... shouldn't confuse the rest of us so easily.
We just did things the Harvey way.. we gave (no strings attached) the privateers trillions for robbing us... because it was supposed to trickle down this time, really! How's that working out for you, America? Banksters aren't lending and the top six banks still control over 60 percent of all our money. Now they want your social security trust fund (trillions more). If SS were truly broke... these banksters and hedgfunders wouldn't be so eager to help us fix it, would they?
When will this country figure out the Harveys of the world have a knife in our countries back? It's time to quit giving them a sharpener for Christmas and Easter.
American Bastille Day can't come soon enough!
I think we should tattoo "Versailles Baby" across every teabaggers forehead in America.
This is the reason why I don't give any credibility to your remarks, Eureka. Even Bill Clinton acknowledged that these systems are going bankrupt. Only extreme left wing idiots refuse to acknowledge that social security, medicare and medicaid aren't going bankrupt. It is NOT the position of the Democratic Party. I will ignore any statements that you make from this point on.
Here is one, to start, ES. I see, by inference and your disdain for Chicago school that you lean Keyneisan, which is intellectually bankrupt as SS and MediCare will be in a few years. The trouble isn't finding sources that show the looming SS and Medicare crisis, it is finding honest data showing how it is NOT going into terminal dive.
Those that claim SS and medicare is not in financial dire straights still have their flat earth maps on their table.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/conte…
2007 article, estrada? Nope... if the article is more than a few days old it is nothing new.
Harvey, You fall into a trap of believing Clinton democrats when it suits your needs... I do it when the facts support them. This is not one of those times.
As muleboy said here the other day... Monica Lewinsky inadvertently saved social security from Clinton and Gingrich's dastardly intentions. Google it yourself. When Clinton Democrats work/agree with the Newts of the world bad things happen.
If everyone worked with the worst long term forecasting scenario they can manufacture over at the Washington Post in hope of making the worst come true.. nobody would conduct business or even get out of bed in the morning.
At least you are honest enough to display your contempt for Keynesian concepts/goals/economics (which brought us from depression thru wars and back into the strongest largest middle class in history).. like making sure people who pay into a program for decades actually get a return on their investment and don't starve to death with no utilities in their old age. Your contempt for helping folk with heath care should equally disqualify you. Your goals are simply different and those you champion have a complete history of death and destruction for everyone but the very rich.
You simply refuse to look at the fact criminal bond schemers (Pete Peterson and ilk) and their bought and paid for politicians in both parties caused the trouble we have now and are the same people in the "catfood commission" who deregulated banksters to begin with in the 90's, are now determined to get us to double down on their looting again and again.
The largest segment of retirees in our history (boomers) should cause strain on the SS trust fund. How we deal with it... should not be to give any of it to the privateers for ponzi schemes and bubbles.
There are very simple solutions if your goal is to actually preserve medical care and a semblance of support in old age. There are only shrill innuendo and scare tactics for those who don't.
Is Brummett implying that Blanche Lincoln would support climate legislation if she were not in a re-election campaign? I'd be interested in hearing his evidence argument on that.
"The guys who lost this country 3 million jobs since taking office ... " Posted by troll
Gee, facts can be so uncomfortable. Note the Figure 2 graph of job increases and decreases for 2008 and into early 2009 (remember who took charge then, troll?) and since then in this Bureau of Labor Statistics PDF:
http://www.bls.gov/news.release/pdf/empsit…
Seems our troll preferred losing up to 800,000 jobs in a single month to the 600,000 private sector jobs added so far in 2010.
A good definition of a partisan is somebody who expects a president from the opposition party who takes office to be able to instantly fix an economy hemorrhaging almost 800,000 jobs in a single month. That same partisan expects people to understand that if it was their party that took office it takes time to change the course of the national economy and pretty much everything else of significance.
Anyone that makes a statement asking for documentation about something that their own party admits to is in my estimation a moron. You obviously fit that so I really don't care what someone like you thinks. You and pelosi deserve each other.
sound, maybe you can explain the 3 MILLION jobs that have been lost since obama took office? I would love to hear your explanation.
When you ask strange-freddo-scono-harv for facts or evidence you notice he shrivels like a 75 yr old fellow peeing in the cold.
You will also notice when facts are called for strange-freddo-scono-harv gives you someone else's opinion page.
You people wouldn't know what documentation was if it bit you on the butt. All you read is dailykos and huffington post and then you laughingly think you have provided a credible source. Rarely do I find any documentation from you folks. All you do is regurgitate the junk you read. So, please, give me a break with this documentation nonsense.
>>If you want to increase the costs to business and think that will result in increased hiring then you should support cap n tax.<<
I can't think of any other product line that is more heavily taxed at the production and consumption ends than alcoholic beverages. What's happened to that industry?
'Facts' don't equal dailykos, moveon.org and huffington post. When you have written a Master's Thesis then you can speak of documentation. I'm not impressed!
Looks like Harvey done gone and bought him a bigger truck cuz he is sure hauling a BIG load of it in here today.
John you did your best I suppose but I still don't see why a bill, as such, was generated in the first place. More smoke and mirror stuff. Can't say I blame B Or P for opposing it at this point.
Yes, it is like we have another planet we can go to when we have screwed this one up beyond repair. Those who are waiting for the rapture might want to work to keep this planet going until it gets here since we don't have another place to escape man's folly.
And Harvey, go read some real data and quit giving us the Beck/Bachmann/Limburger view of the world. They are taking too many drugs to be able to see anything clearly.
Frankly, it is you that are playing the beck role. You mouth some idiotic idea that you got fresh from moveon.org and expect me to embrace it. Remember it was moveon.org that pushed the 'betrayus' nonsense about General Petraeus. I noticed that they have pulled the links to that trash now that obama needs him to save his butt. How hypocritical! Nothing new for the left.
Dftt (Don't feed the troll) is right on the mark. Our very small-minded troll is certifiably brain dead. His posts prove it. "We, the jury, find the troll guilty, your honor, and sentence him to be ignored."
Try to provide info from a reliable source like the Bureau of Labor Statistics and said troll pretends it is from some other source of his choosing.
Harvey/score-no-more/Marmaduke/gary/fredcdobbs/mike/beauragard/strangelove (not necessarily in the correct order of reincarnations & deaths) doesn't intend or know how to carry on an intelligent give and take.
Yes, and I find you childish! If only I had someone to have an intelligent conversation with.
Harvey, dear, if you're having trouble finding someone around here to have an intelligent conversation with, perhaps you need to consider exactly whose intelligence may be lacking.
Leave Harvey alone! He's going to have to carry his own dead body to the grave because he has no friends or family who can stand him. I just think of him like a crazy old uncle I avoid like a plague.
I am not a big believer in this climate change business (gasp). From all I have studied, the earth regularly goes through changes that humans have been able to record, but not understand. No one can tell us why the earth is being a bitch right now. It acted like this when the Roman Empire was flourishing too, way before internal combustion engines or 6 pack plastic rings were killing fish.
Because I'm not jumping on this fad right now, doesn't mean I'm FOR polluting the world we live in. Fort Baptist still has scars from nasty industries closed since the 60s that polluted the soil around them to this day. Industry will pollute as long as it's profitable and everyone lets them get away with it.
Shame doesn't work in the 21st century. Money is the only thing that talks. Making it unprofitable to pollute is the only method we have to get rid of polluters. Capitalism has a giant loophole built in. You can't tax any business because they'll pass that tax on to their customers. We pay corporate taxes and fines, not the corporations. Therefore I worry about cap and trade....cause it looks like more crap heaped on our aching backs.
Nationalizing key industries doesn't scare me. If an industry harms us the way they currently do business and by taxing them we only tax ourselves, that leaves 2 solutions. Put them out of business or nationalize them and let government do it the right way.
The American people shouldn't be held hostage or made slaves or be bled dry. And I'd bet the farm that Lincoln & Pryor will gladly vote to do all 3 to us. We know who has their allegiance and it's not us "small people." So no need to pretend to guess how our 2 Senators will vote.
ES, there is a reason Keynesian economics is contemptible. If your referring to the Depression, I will remind you that the country was on its way to recovery until FDR put in those lovely Keynesian policies, which is why, unlike any previous Depressive cycle, the dang thing lasted eleven long years, and was only forestalled by a world war.
The proof of history is that those policies have brought misery and collapse to nations that do not have a strong capitalist base to soak up the waste and bloat inherent an any scheme of Keynes.
It would be nice, in the land of lollipops and unicorns, if you got back what you paid into any govt program, but even thought from 2007, the truth of the posted article remains the same. Supply. is not keeping up with demand. The money is running out, and that is because the nature of govt is spending, theft. What is supposed to be saved for one day, is actually spent for another. That is just the way they work when you create entitlements. those entitlements become another way for folks like McConnell and Feinstein are able to steal for their little pet projects.
You, ES are ignoring one basic fact, that SS, itself, is a giant ponzi scheme, and just as criminal as anything the bankers commit.
Steven, Don't forget about the severe recession that occurred in 1937 and the fact that unemployment stayed at double digit until 1941.
Actually, businesses will not necessarily pass their taxes on to their customers, because if they pass too much along they might price themselves out of business. People will go to other businesses, or figure something else out, or do without. They can only charge what the MARKET WILL BEAR. In other words, what people can afford to pay.
That idea that they will pass the taxes on to customers, so they shouldn't be taxed, is just a ploy on the part of businesses to keep taxes lower so they can make more profit, while passing on costs to taxpayers (so actually keeping taxes LOW on businesses is passing the tax to customers, in the form of breaks that make it so they don't cover things like infrastructure to get their goods and services to the market).
They know that most people don't understand the laws of supply and demand, so they can snooker people into believing that lie.
Oh, and at the present time SS is not a Ponzi scheme, since the Boomers have been paying for their parents AND themselves, causing a surplus to be created to cover the Boomers when they retire so their children won't have to pay as much as the Boomers have already.
People keep ignoring that "detail" that was established when the Republicans screamed about it in the 80's so something was done about the Boomers retirement, doubling what the Boomers paid in.
It's the Boomers money: they put it in, they deserve to get it when they retire. It's THEIR money from decades of work.
rablib, you haven't been up on your economics lately. The SS Trust Fund is nothing more than a load of IOUs. There is no money in that fund. All the money acquired through FICA that is not paid out in benefits to current retirees goes to the general fund to fund government. That is a PONZI scheme. That is why they refer to SS's 'unfunded liabilities'. They are 'off budget' items. This has been going on for decades.
rablib, businesses do pass on something that all businesses acquire like increased taxes. Since their competitors are also getting hit with those increased expenses they can pass them on.
When I was a kid my folks explained Social Security to me this way: "We pay to take care of the old people now, and when we get old and can't work you and other young people will pay in to take care of us." I remember thinking it was a pretty Christian concept for government.
Now I know my parents' misconception was just socialist, anyway.
It hit them hard when mom found out that during the 30 years she rode to bus to clean rich ladies homes in the Heights she and her employers should have been contributing to her retirement. I don't blame her or the rich Heights ladies for that. Who knew?
I hope we do what we have to do to preserve Social Security. I guess the economics of that socialistChristian thing wouldn't have worked anyway.
Yes, and that is a Ponzi scheme. Unfortunately, the government can do that but a private enterprise can not. They would go to jail. The government has been robbing the people paying into the system by diverting their retirement money for tomorrow to be used to pay for the government today so it doesn't appear to be in debt. That is why Clinton's claim to run a surplus is laughable. Both Republican and Democrats have run this scam for years.
I"m sure if we just institute a cap and trade tax, the sea levels will instantly stop rising, temperatures will instantly start to decline and the world will be saved!!!!!! YEAH!!!!! What a great idea, just institute a new tax to prevent global warming, sheer GENIUS.
Passing a comprehensive climate bill is in the best interest of the majority of Arkansas residents. I really hope that Senators Lincoln and Pryor avoid partisan politics and do what is right for their constituents and the world. Reducing our dependence on oil from hostile foreign nations will benefit our national security; it will also create thousands of domestic “new energy” jobs. Not to mention the public health benefits brought about by cleaner air. Opponents of climate legislation are largely misinformed or they are beholden to big businesses, who don’t want to loose their ability to pollute for free. If you are on the edge, check out a fellow EDFer’s new blog post titled “Five Denier Myths about the Climate & Energy Bill”: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/david-yarnol….
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