There's a simple arithmetic here if the Democrats had the spine to use it. Al Qaeda is to Islam as McVeigh is to Christianity. Does the right really want to walk the path of categorical thinking? As usual, they never take their "logic" to its logical conclusion.

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What spine? The democrats as of late (especially Pryor/Lincoln/Ro$$ of AR) have had none. From Obama on down, instead of taking the Repiglicans to the rack, the Dems have tried to "play nice". What has that gotten us? (I think many progressive readers already know the answer)

In this case Obama made the right call, for once.

I'm no fan of Islam, but neither also of most of what is the "christianity-industrial" complex. The caterwauling of conservative talk radio next week will be filled with the accusations of yet again more FUD about Obama's birthplace, whacked out conspiracies from FOX NEWS/Beck/Limbaugh/Hannity/Savage and a host of D-List conservative jobbers. The teabaggers will follow of course like sheep.

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David Rosen's fine article; Do the clicky

http://www.counterpunch.org/rosen08132010.…

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Personally I believe most if not all our country's deviate problems would be solved washed away if we cleansed ourselves of all religions but then if you must have freedom of religion it's just got to be freedom of all not just certain ones!

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If one demonizes Islam, then the same applies to Christianity, as the Klan, Tmothy McVeigh, the IRA and others who claim religion as their cause. (understand, I am promoting tolerance, not attacking religion. I will be in church tomorrow)

Also, off the subject, but those rich guy tax cuts- how come the New Yorker, and other high dollar demographic venues advertise gucci and rolex, and private jets, and not UNEMPLOYED FOLK WHO NEED JOBS YOU CAN HIRE, or BOYS, HERE IS A SMALL BUSINESS TO SUPPORT?

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I can hear the neo-cons sharpening their rhetorical knives now.

BWC is spot on, the difference in Religious beliefs is the basis for hate for many. At what point does man-kind finally recognize this pox upon our societies as a hold over from eons ago when we were still in awe of those who could make fire?

Seems to me that this continued belief in the Supernatural while it is supposed to be an enhancement to some and give guidance on how to live ones life has instead created more hate then love. It is the very nature of hate that destroys.

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Sigh. Yeah, he's correct. But it's another step toward sealng his, and our, political fate. Color me surprised if he has any chance of winning reelection in spite of his accomplishments -- thinner than I'd prefer, but accomplishments nonetheless.
With more and more crazies coming out of the woodwork, I'm terrified of who will be elected next. Who would ever believe that educated people -- a lt. colonel in the Army being the latest in the news -- would still be buying into the birther nonsense?
Who would think so many would scream "He's taking too many vacations!" counting weekends at Camp David vacations?
Too many of my countrymen have taken leave of their senses.

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(In response to Norma's open-line post...mostly)

Seems to me, Norma, that we should be able to find a way to sustain/continue our tolerance for other religions without rolling out the red carpet for another Hitler/Bin Laden. Yes, I've seen the stories of an intolerant Islam spreading its particular brand of 'intolerance' across Europe. And, I'm definitely tired of their nasty penchant for threatening to kill every comedian/comic-strip creator who portrays Mohamed in a way that's unacceptable to them. Who the fuck gave them the right to shape an entire world to their nutty tyranny...(and if I was a public person I'd probably have to be writing this from a secure location given that I would have already portrayed Mohamed in every way that offends the murderous thugs)?! But I'm not ready to become them.

Letting our Constitution work/survive by letting the mosque be built 2-3 blocks from ground zero is the right thing to do, for us. It's also right that if the backers of that mosque were serious about all their pretty bridge-building words they'd move it.

You are right, Norma, about religious nuts/zealots all being the same. ALL organized religions inherently produce intolerance and self-righteous bullies who believe ANYTHING/EVERYTHING is justified by their god and that other religions are WRONG...ofttimes wrong enough to justify death. But the same things can be said about politics/democracy...so, in short, I think it's the nuts, not the belief.

I agree that political correctness ofttimes goes too far; however, I'm an absolutist on Free Speech and most folks don't agree with my 'extremist' views. But political correctness has also done some good things like focus attention on sexism/other 'isms.' So, once again, it's clear to me that there isn't an idea/belief/ANYTHING that humans can't fuck up in one way or another...luckily we also do many things right.

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"...Too many of my countrymen have taken leave of their senses."

Amen...anytime I get to thinking that some crumbs of sanity might cut through some of the lies/disinformation/crap now that Obama's president, I remind myself that Monkeyboy was President for EIGHT years and that Obama barely won the Presidency.

What they can't get through fear they'll simply steal...and the voting machines that helped put Monkeyboy in office are still out there.

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"Obama makes the right call."

I think it is the right call. Clearly we cannot tolerate a Timothy McVeigh or the KKK or Nazis doing their thing because they think (or rationalize) it was "Christian." Clearly this nation's laws will come down as hard on Muslims who stone women for "adultery" or commit murder to maintain their "honor" as it does on any other murder. Clearly we could not permit atheists to conduct a Stalinist-type purge or persecute adherents of a religion who follow the nation's Constitution and constitutional laws. It is fairly clear that the United States cannot tolerate terrorism, whatever the belief system from which it originates. So, yes, religionists of all kinds and atheists and anti-theists all have to subordinate to the law, here in the United States, some behaviors that would be in accord of the views held by some adherents and teachers and scriptures of their faith, but our Constitution does give them the right to practice otherwise whatever pick-and-choose religion they like.

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"This is America, and our commitment to religious freedom must be unshakeable."

It's a pity that he and many others don't extend that line of thinking to *all* freedoms... why is religious freedom so much more important than some others?

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Obama does occasionally show some courage rather than just putting a finger to the polls wind or weighing his reelection chances, and then doing the expedient. I'm happy he made this stand but wish he had done it in a more public forum where more citizens could hear his reasons.

Red Pill, you are correct that Christianity has it's own fundamental crazies and if someone tells you to read the Koran you might tell them to read the Old Testament. The Old Testament doesn't have to make us murderers of infidels, and neither does the Koran.

I'm heartsick at the state of our nation and the hate that seems it will be a fulfilling prophecy by one of my steeped in crazy relatives who vowed that the election of President Obama would bring about another civil war within the US. That the hate is fomented to some extent in our 'Christian' churches just makes me want to move to another planet.

Zelda - great commentary but waste of breath. How are you BTW? I miss running into you on this thing but I just can't stomach some of the drivel - life is just too short to rub elbows with fools and idiots dressed as people.

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"...life is just too short to rub elbows with fools and idiots dressed as people."

Oh, Cici! That says it all!!!

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If Obama is correct... and under the system we have now I think he is...

This should once and for all put an end to restrictions on churches of crack or heroin or oil or needless war, or churches of child molesting or churches of I'm going to shoot you in the face with all my guns or churches of money is god. But Christians will not see their hypocritical lunacy anymore than Muslims... so on it goes.

Until we have freedom FROM religion, including a complete ban on tax free religious contributions to our political process I will sit back and watch the little people destroy themselves as they are so want to do. And hope hope hope they wake up before taking us, yet again, down horrific paths of misery in the name of the God of the week.

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Great post, zelda.

I think Republican politicians read the Constitution and are smart enough (as opposed to some in the "grassroots" movements) to know that the only way NYC or the federal government could stop the building of the mosque is to pass a law or ordinance doing exactly what the first amendment says government must not do -- prohibiting the free exercise of religion. I think they know the law or ordinance would fall. But they would get to make a lot of hay out of it first, or they can make hay out of the president's refusal to support such a law.

Of course there is a balancing test. Everything in the Constitution requires balancing; the document is not self-executing. Balance to see whether religious beliefs give a college organization a pass from the school's "all-inclusive" non-discrimination rules. Balance to see whether a prisoner's faith-fueled desire to go unshaven creates intolerable security risks. Etc. etc.

But thank God the balancing is directed toward actions, and not philosophy of faith. Thank God our Courts are not required--or allowed--to determine that *this* faith is bad (why, just read their essential book) but *that* faith is less so. I guess the founders had had enough of an official government church oppressing the ones out of favor.

So we won't punish the thoughts, hopes, prayers, or beliefs of folk in this country -- not even those Christians who proudly proclaimed on T-shirts and bumper stickers: "Pray for Obama; Psalms 109:8 (the psalmist says "let his days be few...let his wife be a widow and his children fatherless").

It is enough to punish actions (such as McVeigh's or that of the World Trade Center bombers) that would violate the law no matter who committed the actions or what their motivation.

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This was bad form on Obama's part. Although I agree with his comments, this was, without a doubt, the dumbest damn public statement he has made so far. It's a local matter and he should have steered clear of it. This was like throwing salmon to a hungry bear. The right wing now has everything they need to win the November elections as well as the Presidency.

I can only take refuge in one idea. That I, as a thinking progressive, am able to criticize my president and not follow him blindly. The right wingers never questioned or criticized Bush, and many of them sold their children's lives in his ill advised wars.

I guess it's Harry Reid's milquetoast brand of running the Democratic Party that's ruined Barack Obama.

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Damned if you don't; damned if you do.

Obama says nothing and is blasted for being too lily-livered to speak up; hiding behind silence; won't take a stand.

Obama says something and is blasted for having spoken; should have steered clear of it; it was a local matter.

True, it is a local matter. A local matter which just happens to involve the Constitution of the United States. Which makes it a matter of federal concern. And although it is true that the Republicans will make all kind of hay with it, it is just as true--IMHO--that it is appropriate for the president to lend his voice and the power of his office in support of the United States Constitution. Perhaps some citizens will hear him and will understand the issue at stake in this controversy.

This is not just about "ground zero"; this is also about the right of religious groups to build buildings that do not violate laws. In short, it is an extension, or application, of "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof . . . ."

Again, IMHO

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If someone would elect me God, one of my first acts would be to tear down all churches, synagogues, and mosques in America....no wait, and the rest of the world. Religion sucks in my opinion and was invented because no human can really imagine dying and never being here again. The benefits of pretending to be "saved" from eternal death are far outweighed by the damage done by Christian leaders who make life a constant torment for children and adults caught in their snare. Not to mention the hate spread in the name of love.....talk about twisted.

Having said that and because I am not God, and because I think my say ends at my property line, I am in favor of building a church building on every lot in America...except my lots, of course. Go ahead! Have at it! Replace all buildings with churches, synagogues, mosques, tent revivals, and brush arbors. We can sleep in our cars or in alleys...well, you all can, I'm keeping my house even if I have to put a big cross on the top to sneak by.

Any time you join a group, you are in effect separating yourself from the rest of the population. And sooner or later someone in your group is going to suggest that another group ain't much punkins, doesn't wipe properly, doesn't love God-America-apple pie. They should be watched! They should be run off! They should be nailed to a cross! They should be loaded into gas chambers and ovens and exterminated!

Group think is a bitch. Rarely can one find a single individual who comes up with a nasty plan all his own and then acts upon it. Most got their ideas, grew their ideas, became convinced murdering someone was the correct act with the help of others in a group. So beware of who you join up with!

I hate that the Muslims are going to tear down an 1857 brick building....whatever they build won't match the workmanship and beauty of what they're tearing down. Next thing ya know Jerry Cox will be wanting to tear down a historic strip club to build a giant complex honoring himself. Go Obama!

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I'm a bit sick of the whole "OMG! Ground Zero! Think of the feelings of the victims!!!!".
Man up America.
There is a fucking strip joint closer to that hallowed sacred ground (that they are planning on building a huge ass office building on top of) then this "community center with a prayer room" in it will be.
It is amazing that the folks who worry so much about the Constitution and the Founding Fathers actually only care about some of the Bill of Rights and only when it is about them.
What bunch of bastards they are.
Thank God that is President Obama standing there and not President Palin.

I'm also annoyed at Dems/libs for whom nothing the President does now will make them happy.
jesus, what a bunch of fucking whiners.

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Dathybyinches! Well said! Hung on every word!

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Of course, it's legal in America to build a mosque on private property, but is it smart? It's legal to burn the American flag, but would you do it at a Veteran's convention? I don't think so. I also think having a Goldman, Sacks office or a McDonald's there is also in bad taste.

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Bubba, you do realize that the community center with a prayer room in it will be blocks from "ground zero" and that there is a titty bar closer and churches right next to that hallowed ground because, well it is in a big ass city.

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Page 4B of today's ADG (no link possible) reports a poll reflecting that 52% of Southern Americans believe that Jesus will return before the year 2050.

"What rough beast... slouches toward....Atkins?" Apologies to Yeats.

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Ah, what fools these mortals be."

ES is right on. I would love to live as free from religions as possible.

I must agree with Gandhi when asked about western civilization, "I think it's a good idea."

http://www.islam-watch.org/Warner/Taqiyya-…

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How delightful of Cato, recent poster of anti-semitic fabrication as fact, choosing now the Jewish Sabbath to link an article by Jewish David Rosen essentially informing us, “I’m Okay, Islam Okay.”

Delightful because, of course, if Rosen is any kind of Jew he could neither have written nor posted the article himself. Not today. It’s his Sabbath.

Were Rosen consciously aware of Cato’s efforts in his behalf, without doubt he would spontaneously erupt in a grateful jig of joy. But jigging’s not permitted on the Sabbath either.

To make his simplistic point, in his unconsciously ad hominem attack of a title (“Know-Nothings of 2010”), Rosen discusses everything BUT the realities of Islam in Western nations in the 21st Century and the quite real “clash of civilizations.” He lengthily explores, instead, America’s own history of religious intolerance.

At the center of Rosen’s article is his completely inaccurate and misleading statement:

“In the days before 9/11, most informed people accepted Islam as a variant within the Abrahamic tradition.”

Uh, no: most informed people DIDN’T. Uninformed people did.

Rosen’s assertion is only true if he’s never read De Toqueville, Twain, Chateaubriand, John Lloyd Stephens, V.S. Naipaul, Trifkovic, et al., writer / travelers spanning two centuries, on Islam and Muslim civilizations.

Here is Rosen at his conveniently blind best. “The challenge that faces today’s Anglo-American Protestant descendents . . . is whether they can change and accept America as a multi-cultural society.”

“A multi-cultural society.” What could be simpler? Accept all religions, all cultures, as equal. “Don’t be judgmental.”

As appealing as this sweet Hallmark idiocy is to many, it is factless, clueless and hopeless.

It’s exactly the same as saying that alley graffiti is as acceptable and worthy as the Mona Lisa.

The notion that everybody and everything is equally acceptable and worthy is of the stupid, by the stupid, for the stupid.

Religion is the word of God? Then the world’s thousand and one contradictory religions prove nothing but the deity’s insanely petty, bloody OCD psychopathology.

Your religion is the True one? That’s what they all say. That’s the problem.

Religion is what somebody else TELLS you, secondhand, what “God” says and celebrating supposed sayings and miraculous tales of mythical figures. (Note the implication that you, directly, cannot experience God without going through that “somebody,” those myths, and supporting them.)

Religions, like art, are man-made and range from graffiti to gospels. It’s insulting to pretend that Antwaun-in-the-‘hood’s artistic and cultural expression in any way equals Rembrandt’s, or to act accordingly.

Here’s De Tocqueville in 1843.

“I studied the Koran a great deal. I came away from that study with the conviction there have been few religions in the world as deadly to men as that of Muhammad. So far as I can see, it is the principal cause of the decadence so visible today in the Muslim world and, though less absurd than the polytheism of old, its social and political tendencies are in my opinion to be feared, and I therefore regard it as a form of decadence rather than a form of progress in relation to paganism itself.”

Here is Rosen on John Lloyd Stephens, author of Incidents of Travel in Egypt, Arabia Petraea, and the Holy Land (1837).

“Attributing all to the will of God renders human agency pathetically ineffectual. Stephens finds that the will of Allah and the honor of the Prophet provide a useful excuse for beastly behavior.”

Rosen fails to mention that the same can be said of Judaism, Christianity and Scientology.

Speaking of those travelers and writers of the 19th Century and their observations, Algis Valiunas writes, “But they and their fellow writers also show that the clash of civilizations is real, that certain aspects of it may be irreducible, and that the conflict will not be over any time soon.”

So the exercise becomes watching how far Islam will be allowed to erode Western freedoms and laws in its ancient and ongoing vow to “conquer” the kafir, the infidels, us apes and dogs, in the name of Allah.

New York’s Muslim’s could have built their mosque anywhere.

Their selection of that particular site near Ground Zero to build their mosque is a deliberate and hugely symbolic choice. Muslims understand and desire exactly the response they’ve gotten: enormous controversy and worldwide publicity for Islam; a chance to practice taqiyya (lying to further Islam); suckering America’s historical ignorance and its resulting superficial “tolerance” to make further inroads here as in Europe.

Though too late now, the sale of the Manhattan property could have been nipped in the bud behind-the-scenes, given the slightest awareness and intelligence of history and Islam on the part of the land-owning and financing participants. It’s done all the time.

No dramatic passing of some discriminatory and pervasive “law” necessary, as Tap suggests on another thread.

But less symbolic and in-your-face properties for their mosque were rejected.

France, Britain and Europe, much older countries, have learned the hard way to deal with Islam in their midst. As here, it “sneaked” up on them because they refused to look at facts or believe the truth. Now they’re banning public burqas, fighting riots, watching situations grow worse and wondering what to do when Islam once again attacks and tries to destroy Israel.

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Norma...ummmmm...wow?

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Diogenes,

the New Yorker prints Rolex & Gucci ads because the people @ Rolex and Gucci pay them to do so. But you raise a good question; I wish you'd go to the new yorker's website and ask them why they don't donate some ad space toward that cause.

Now, this business with the mosque just proves once and for all that Obama is a Muslim. when the repiglicans (I like that) and the Fox nutjobs start squawking about this deal, I think it's time for the Democrats to fight back & get nasty about it if they have to. I dont think taking the high road will win any elections.

and Norma, not all religions claim that theirs is the One True Church. The Methodists, Episcopalians, and most of the Baptists I know, in our church, are ecumenical. I dont like the ones that do, either, but I know they arent going to quit building Church of Christ facilities just cause i dont like their attitudes.

This here is America, and everybody has the right to worship the way they see fit unless I don't approve of it, or what??

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Good read for those who haven't seen.....

Johann Hari
Columnist, London Independent
Posted: August 10, 2010 06:42 AM

The Slow, Whining Death of British Christianity
And now congregation, put your hands together and give thanks, for I come bearing Good News. My country, Britain, is now the most irreligious country on earth. This island has shed superstition faster and more completely than anywhere else. Some 63 percent of us are non-believers, according to a 2006 Guardian/ICM poll, while 82 percent say religion is a cause of harmful division. Now, let us stand and sing our new national hymn: Jerusalem was dismantled here/ in England's green and pleasant land.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/johann-hari/…

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"...The notion that everybody and everything is equally acceptable and worthy is of the stupid, by the stupid, for the stupid..."

Guess I'm missing something 'cause I didn't think the general argument was that everything is equally acceptable/worthy. I thought the basic argument was that as a country, a community we wouldn't support any one religion over another...that all religions (except, of course, those that require a virgin to sacrifice/blah blah) are equal under our law. That's hardly the same as trying to equate the taking of Communion with the actions of a suicide bomber and his awaiting virgins.

Child molesters, wife beaters and testosterone bullies seem to love hiding within organized religions...but they would exist even if the religion didn't.

As far as what Britain, France and Europe are doing...we crossed that ocean for more than one reason. I guess I refuse to believe that we can't maintain our religious acceptance AND maintain law/order. Besides, Islam has a long way to go before it gets the fraction of power that the Catholic Church/Israel have now in our country.

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Hey, cici...good to hear from you, too. I, too, get weary and check out for awhile...just not interested in some of the stuff. I miss jazzy, too, 'cause if I stayed too long off the blog she'd send me an email telling me she missed by blog bitchiness and would I please get busy :).

As much as I like the convenience of emails/blogs/facebook/etc., I prefer spending most of my time off the computer...living life to the fullest. Which is one reason I've never understood spending days building a virtual life in one of those community-building games...it's much more fun to just build a life! (Especially when you've lived as long as us and lost folks like jazzy/loved ones...hug your loved ones EVERY day, if possible.)

Have a nice weekend, cici...and everyone else, too!!

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>>Child molesters, wife beaters and testosterone bullies seem to love hiding within organized religions...but they would exist even if the religion didn't.<<

Naturally I'm always hot to read Mz Z's latest but in this case honey, you're conclusion is not one we can examine.

This flamebaiting can go on all day and I enjoy it. For those who grow bored or tired there's a new web device to save you time and energy..on the link. Amazing how it works..

http://www.pakin.org/complaint/

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"you're conclusion" = your conclusion. Low puls-ox today.

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Why, thanks, elwood...I love knowing you enjoy my bitchiness. Hard as it may be to believe...some folks don't appreciate my particular brand of smartassness (yes, I know).

Sure, it's true that I can't prove that wife beaters/pedophiles would exist even without organized religion...but neither can you prove the opposite. Again...I think it's the people finding the cult that best enables their particular perversion rather than the cult teaching them it's OK to be a pervert if it's the name of god.

As for flamebaiting...I think you're giving me too much credit (though I'd love to think I'm more blog savvy than I know I am). I really wasn't jumping on Norma (if that's what you mean by flamebaiting); I was trying to understand what she was saying so I could discuss the issue. Surely we can still discuss religion/agree to disagree on this blog...without using all those fancy technical Internet words :)

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HOT DAMN! I guess I fall in that "stupid," stupid and more stupid category...because I'm not that scared of the sacred Holiness of religious individuals. They have been around forever.

"flamebaiting" is that a the next degree up to troll ism?

I'm saving scared for when Republicans "take back their country."

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Islam, Christianity and Judaism are all Abrahamic religions. Abraham fathered them all. God told him to get the hell out of Dodge and go where He showed him, and Abraham obeyed.

Sometimes I'm pretty sure that God is telling me to get the hell out of Arkansas, but He's up there and I sleep with my wife.

I now return you to your flaming/flamebaiting/etc.

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I didn't think Zelda was "jumping" on me or flamebaiting anybody at all. I enjoyed her post and thought she was doing exactly what she said: trying to understand and discuss the issue.

My issue was with David Rosen's article -- as with so many like it -- and the general mindset that "everybody does it" and "no religion is inherently bad, just fundamentalists" and "all great religions are based on Love" -- and recognizing that few if any who post their opinions about Islam have the slightest connection with even the few books or authors (including the two Muslim women) I mentioned today or last evening.

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Thanks, BWC, for sharing the Johann Hari link.

Actually, Roland, when you say, "Islam, Christianity and Judaism are all Abrahamic religions. Abraham fathered them all," the facts don't support you. Yes, that is what we're told and taught. No, it's not true.

All three religions have a common origin far older than "Abraham."

The BBC program, "The Naked Truth." produced around 1997, as I recall, does an excellent and informative job tracing those ancient origins, for those with an objective interest in the origins of their "faith."

The production values aren't particular stellar, but the information literally is, for those who've lived this long in more or less willful ignorance of the truth.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-8…

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From what I know about Islam, I believe Norma is exactly right in her lengthy analysis, but I still don't know what you could do about the mosque in a country that prides itself on religious freedom.

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I can actually hear the moans..... Guess this ties into Taqiyya.

"I am a Muslim," Obama Tells Egyptian Foreign Minister Gheit ... Jun 12, 2010 ... Egyptian Foreign Minister Ahmed Aboul Gheit said he had a one-on-one meeting with Obama, in which President Obama told him that he was still ...

atlasshrugs2000.typepad.com/atlas_shrugs/2…...

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http://www.atlasshrugs2000.typepad.com/atl…

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"Sure, it's true that I can't prove that wife beaters/pedophiles would exist even without organized religion...but neither can you prove the opposite. Again...I think it's the people finding the cult that best enables their particular perversion rather than the cult teaching them it's OK to be a pervert if it's the name of god." By Zelda

I couldn't agree more. We tend to latch onto what supports our personal prejudices when it comes to religion and often politics. Note that the Republicans, and sometimes the Democrats, can turn on a dime their reverence for the constitution, depending on whose ox is in the ditch.

There are intelligent, mankind loving people in most all 'religions' and those who grasp passages from their 'book' that allow them to act out their anger at those who offend them, pervert their demonstrate their lack of belief and taint their fellow observers.

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Where do we get the idea that Obama is entering a local problem? I thought that 9-11 was a national attack & the resulting problems are national task, are not the tax moneys expended in NYC because 9-11 federal?

The population of NYC proper is 8,363,710 more than 9 US States combined,the NYC metro population 19,069,796 is larger than 15 States combined.

The president of the United States would be stupid if he did not get involved. If the Republicans wish to stop the building of a Islamic complex in NYC then they need to start legislation to repeal the first amendment. After all all the constitution as Bush said is only a piece of paper.

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Nor do I, Plainjim.

As I mentioned, had the powers-that-be in New York real estate and politics been on their toes, this controversy needn't have happened in this "free" country.

"Actually, Mohammed, our title search on that property just turned up a transaction in 2006 that got lost in the shuffle. One Donald Trump owns it and says it's not for sale and should never have been listed. But let us show you a site we think is perfect for the mosque in Queens."

That would have been the obvious and diplomatic solution. But no.

The Manhattan real estate and political community is not comprised of dimwits. "Who could have foreseen the firestorm of anti-Islam rage?" they will claim, wide-eyed, after depositing their commissions.

They'll let "free" Americans do it for them and make it worse than had they chosen tact.

Americans will vent against Muslim encroachment instead of against greedy realtors and politicians. Tensions and violence will increase, necessitating bigger budgets for increased law enforcement personnel and equipment; stocks in security and surveillance companies will skyrocket; TV ratings will soar with all the coverage; ugly copycat mosque-building / mosque-decrying scenarios mushroom round the states; politicians run on promises of longer, higher fences somewhere; realtors and financiers take their cut; Taylor Lautner portrays Tom Cruise's son in James Cameron's action-packed IMAX 3-D version shot on location in Manhattan and Mecca and . . . $3-$4B later . . . everybody's happy and moved on to asking, "Does the ocean look a little 'up' to you?"

You play with a full deck in the Apple, Razorbabies.

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Well, sure, there are roots further back. A lot of the OT is almost a retelling of Gilgamesh. But as those faiths see it, Abraham is the father of them all. Expecting the Bible to be historical truth is missing the point. Not that that's your point.

It's actually very interesting that I see more arguments against the mosque on this board than I'm seeing on any of the Christian blogs I visit. I'm seeing more positive comments about Obama from evangelicals than I have in a long time. Not labeling the whole by the acts of a few and forgiving the hijackers themselves are big themes. I'm sure there are some of those Tea Party Christians tearing their hair but for the sake of my blood pressure I don't read those.

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I'm talking MUCH farther back than Gilgamesh, Roland.

You say, "Well, sure," like everybody knows and acknowledges the common origin of Judaism, Christianity and Islam.

They don't.

Perhaps you do, but for others interested -- the link.

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Roland,

Just be very sure God isn't telling you to go to Missouri or Texas, if you get any more messages & He says take your wife with you, and kids if applicable, okay? We dont want those crazies to get you. they'd be just as dangerous as the terrorists if they had as much money.

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Oh, great. Now Obama's backing away from what he said. He was just talking about stuff in general. Not the decision about where to build a mosque.

http://www.americablog.com/2010/08/obama-b…

Unbelievable.

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From what I know about Islam, I believe Norma is exactly right in her lengthy analysis, but I still don't know what you could do about the mosque in a country that prides itself on religious freedom.

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Obama switching his position on any matter should come as no surprise to anyone who's been paying attention. He's done it on many issues...healthcare, DADT, withdrawing from Iraq and Afghanistan, etc., etc. Something about his Moon sign in Gemini, shifty, unreliable.

But this >>You play with a full deck in the Apple, Razorbabies.<<

Obviously thousands didn't as Bernie took them to the cleaners for about $50 big billions.

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I know "the nose of the camel in the tent" ordinarily is imagery chosen by conservatives to justify denial of freedom (let gays marry, next thing folks will be marrying elephants).

But I'll invoke the (beware if sudden metaphor shift) slippery slope idea on this topic: Once we start making any kind of decisions based on the idea that a certain religion is "bad" or "full of bad tenets" or "not in accord with what *most* of us think," John Hagee 'n'em can start rubbing their hands with glee -- "every knee shall bend, every head shall bow" to Jesus, don't you know?

I still say: Do bad stuff -- pay the price. Think bad thoughts or pray to your God for bad outcomes -- welcome to America; have at it.

If the Catholics or Presbyterians or Methodists can build a place of worship there, the Government has no business at all drawing distinctions.

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