Monday, April 25, 2011
Taxes A progressive budget plan
Posted by Max Brantley on Mon, Apr 25, 2011 at 6:43 AM
Paul Krugman touts a plan by progressives in Congress to reduce the deficit. 1) Higher taxes for the rich. 2) Rescinding most of the Bush tax cuts, including some that benefited the middle class; 3) spending cuts, heavily focused on defense; 4) an increase in the Social Security cap. It has the obvious benefit of preserving Social Security, Medicare and Medicaid. So why doesn't it get attention?
The answer, I’m sorry to say, is the insincerity of many if not most self-proclaimed deficit hawks. To the extent that they care about the deficit at all, it takes second place to their desire to do precisely what the People’s Budget avoids doing, namely, tear up our current social contract, turning the clock back 80 years under the guise of necessity. They don’t want to be told that such a radical turn to the right is not, in fact, necessary.But, it isn’t, as the progressive budget proposal shows. We do need to bring the deficit down, although we aren’t facing an immediate crisis. How we go about stemming the tide of red ink is, however, a choice — and by making tax increases part of the solution, we can avoid savaging the poor and undermining the security of the middle class.
ALSO: The coming vote on raising the U.S. debt limit is the focus of much commentary. Brummett derides the framing of this by the 'baggers. A Washington Post writer questions the seriousness of the threat not to raise it.
Speaking of Federal Budget, Ryan Plan
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Republican talking point in peril
March 5, 2012Because of the split between the 'baggers and the marginally sane in the Republican Party, there's now some question whether House Republicans can come together to pass a budget. /more/
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Comments (59)
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David Stockman, approaching the deficit problem from the right, was making much the same points in an op-ed couple of days ago -- that the middle class, as well as those with incomes greater than $250,000 -- can and should help to increase government revenues:
"IT is obvious that the nation’s desperate fiscal condition requires higher taxes on the middle class, not just the richest 2 percent. Likewise, entitlement reform requires means-testing the giant Social Security and Medicare programs, not merely squeezing the far smaller safety net in areas like Medicaid and food stamps."
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/04/24/opinion/… Stockman&st=Search&adxnnl=1&scp=1&adxnnlx=1303732837-x/unGvlGur6+dL4ReAC/LQ
If Paul Krugman and Ronald Reagan's Director of Management and Budget can see pretty close to eye-to-eye, it seems like Congress and the Administration could develop a workable plan, if, as Krugman suggests, they were leveling with us and each other.
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If even coming close to defaulting on raising the debt ceiling happens and interest rates by the Fed start to go up, so do all of those variable rate home mortgage payments based on the Fed rates.
As usual an excellent article from Pual.
Forgive me for beating a dead horse but it seems to me the only debt crisis we have are corporate tax breaks/incentives and tax breaks for the rich thanks to dummy jr. So all our 450 honest (albeit oxymoron) church going congressional representatives have to do to do their moral and social responsibility is eliminate both with one vote and poof.
Unfortunately across the board Washington congressional representative are or are vying at all cost to become rich and they (big talking pro-lifers) don't seem to care whether gram-ma or the fetus have health insurance and dies or not.
The illusion that everyone can be rich started under God Reagan trickle down rhetoric that seduced everyone into believing, like religion, you don't need proof just faith.
This would be a good time to re-run you David Cay Johnson's April 13, 2911 article "The ruin of Reaganomics".
This was always the stated intent of Reagonomics. It is a matter of public record. And, It is finally working. Democrats have lost control of the argument and the electorate. In a way, victims of their own success. Too bad Obama is such a poor politician.
Our "first black President" (Bill) left with a balanced budget. To return there we would have to raise taxes by about 19%. But we would have to cut spending by almost 28%. 70% of those cuts would have to be non-defense. I don't recall any progressives howling about Clinton as a wing-nut or a 'bagger, so how about we just agree to reset to those levels?
The U.S. already has one the highest Corporate Income Tax Rates in the World. Yeah, so let's raise them and end tax breaks for them. After that, sit back and watch all these Corporations leave the U.S. and move overseas. Sit back and watch our Country not only lose tax revenues but jobs too....
I have an idea....let's tax everyone who makes over $100,000 at 100%. Let's make them pay more so the 47% of Americans who don't pay a single dime in Federal Income Tax can continue to get a FREE ride....
Here's a good article from Wendell Potter, former Health insurance executive and now a born-again man of the people, on the Repubs plan to privatize Medicare. And can we stop calling it the Republican plan and start calling it VOUCHERCARE? We need to get a pithy message and stay on it for the next 18 months.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/wendell-pott…
cf, Here's my post from yesterday in case you missed it:
"eL, We have another troll without spellcheck. Takining it Back (sic), the consensus around here is that people like you will be ignored if you can't come up with facts to back your arguments. I have decided that you, cf, byates, etal were tossed buck nekkid into the woods at birth where you were raised by wolves. At some point you all stumbled upon a pair of boot straps and were off and running to make your fortune all by yourselves with no help from anyone. That is the only explanation I can come up with for your lack of any moral sense. Even wolves have a sense of family and community. I guess your mama lobo didn't teach you well."
You keep harping on people not paying federal income taxes without taking into account all the other taxes. For starters there is the 15.3% FICA tax that comes off the top of everyone's check. Then there are property taxes, sales taxes, gas taxes, etc. Effective tax rate is much higher for lower income earners when all of this is factored in. And yes, I am aware that employee FICA withholding was reduced in 2011 to 5.65%, but that is temporary.
Go find yourself some facts and stop being a johnny one-note on federal income taxes, then maybe we'll let you come back here and play with the grown-ups.
From reading the article/post I understand that, “President Clinton left a balanced budget”, all we need to do is “raise taxes on the middle class and those earning $250k and above”, we “are not facing an immediate crises” and that nice Mister “Krugman touts a plan” that has the fix. It would appear that some like the IMF are not convinced.
cbb, maybe I should have spelled it out more carefully, but I'm not speaking in terms of dollars, I'm speaking in terms of percentage of GDP. GDP is 2.5x what it was in 1992, so to go back to the Clinton percentages is to leave spending double and half-again what it was then. However, I also was not referencing 1992 (when Clinton was not in office but was elected). I'm referencing 2000 and 2001, the last two "Clinton" budgets (in quotes, because Congress obviously played a role). GDP has risen about 50% since then, so the same percentages as 2001 would still mean 50% more dollars. Before you holler about inflation, only about 30% of that change in GDP is due to inflation, so inflation-adjusted spending could be 20% higher than in 2001 and still not be any more of GDP.
Both of those years federal spending was "only" 18.2% of GDP (still higher than any year before WWII and most of the 1950s). Our increased defense spending adds 1.9% of GDP so you could blame 20.1% spending on our "two wars" (three now that Obama has taken on Libya?). But federal spending is *25.1%* of GDP now! Obama is spending 33% more *of our national income* on non-defense spending than even Bill Clinton.
Establish fair trade with revenue generating tariffs instead of maintaining the lie and expense of free trade.
Cut defense by 85 percent (capping it to no more than the next biggest two billion people spend/ Russia and China combined).
Establish health care as a human right with tri-care or single payer and establishment of law making it illegal for government to give a penny to health profiteers.
End, oil and nuke subsidies.
Make it illegal for anyone in any company (especially those related to national security or ponzi finance) to accept government money as a contract or loan and pay themselves more than 100k a year. Limit profiteering on projects for public good.
Reestablish SS retirement age to 62.
Initiate massive jobs plans related to providing health care to all, elderly care, education, mass transport, green energy, fiber internet to every dwelling which has an electric meter or plumbing.
Cramdown millions of upside-down mortgages. And rid ourselves of massive debilitating credit card debts.
Break up banksters until they fit in jail!
Triple the minimum wage (giving minimum wage earners the same earning power they had in the mid 1970's). Simply catch up with lost raises tied to inflation.
Establish public party and campaign finance only.
Walk like Egyptians... get a spine today!
We have tons of money, the only question is how to use it, to what end?
Outliar....I pay all of those taxes you mentioned in addition to a third of my income for Federal Income Taxes and 7% to State Tax. I think I'm taxed more than my fair share.
All people in this Country should pay a minimum of 10% of their income for Federal Income Tax....I don't think that's too much to ask for....
Eureka has the right idea; a four day/32 hour work week and retirement at 55 would create millions of new jobs overnight.
cf, it is revealing that you are the only one proposing things like 100% tax rates. Does that mean you are in favor of 100% tax rates? I assume so since you are the only one mentioning that.
Others have proposed tilting the income tax rates less in favor of the super rich who don't need the money and more in favor of middle and lower income folks. Why do you hate folks who weren't born rich?
Were not talking about going back to the income tax rates under President Eisenhower, so chill.
It's hard to believe it was only 10 years ago when Bubba Bush was appointed president that people like Alan Greenspan were saying we had to be careful how we paid off the national debt so we didn't disrupt the economy while doing so. Gosh, Bubba Bush and his Rethuglicon handlers sure solved that problem!
Read an interesting study this weekend.
If you look at people making over $250K a year, most will say 1) taxes on the rich are too low and 2) they themselves pay too much in taxes. Unfortunately, our universe tolerates such paradoxes without causing the thinker to disappear into another dimension.
Most rich people consider themselves middle class. It is because you can never be too rich. Millionaires consider themselves middle class and want to be billionaires.
I say tax everyone who makes over $100,000 at 100% because you people won't be happy until it gets to that point. There's a movement building in this Country and I can assure you raising taxes is last on the list. Massive spending/Entitlement cuts are on the way. Government spending is over 25% of our GDP. It's not sustainable. Your idea of taxing Corporations more will only drive them out of this Country which means lost tax revenue and lost jobs.
I don't think I'm asking too much for every American to pay at least 10% of their income to Federal Income Taxes.
Even if you take the top tax rate to 50%, it wouldn't put a dent in the debt or deficit. Massive spending cuts and Entitlement Program cuts are the only way to get us back on track.
On top of the debt and deficit, Obama's massive money printing is causing the prices of everything to skyrocket.
I'm not a republican or democrat, I'm a realist. I know that these cuts are going to be very painful to a lot of people, but I would rather do them now than to have my kids and grandkids grow up in a depression.
Bless you, Eureka. Steve needs an editor. cf needs to quit peeing in his pants in fear, and face up to the fact that yes, we are facing difficult times that have nothing to do with whether he pays too much federal income tax or others pay none.
Coming down the pike is peak oil production (we reached peak oil discovery some time ago) and fall-out from global climate change. To work through these problems requires a prospective mind and a real sense of community and working together. cf will eventually discover that no man is an island.
And Steve, the AEI is a libertarian think tank that is rife with neo-cons and acolytes of Leo Strauss (of noble lying fame). You need to dig deeper into the institutions you cite for your ideas and information.
estrada, cf already been learned of this so should you. Medicare and SS are solvent and paid for. Problem is other programs have borrowed from them and not put it back. There was some effort in congress to make sure things are paid for as you go. Well, i think Medicare and SS would pay for themselves.
So the fiscal irresponsibility is that of mismanaging Medicare and SS funds. That's the problem.
cfo, as long as you refer to SS and medicare as entitlements, no one will take you seriously. This is not the government's money, and it is not a handout. My grandfather worked for 60 years, not until he was 60, for 60 years. He paid into SS every year of it, and how some slimey SOB like you can even breath the words that he is in some way lazy is enough to make me sick. For those that don't know, CFO has been on a real tear lately. Click the name and read his garbage.
Yes, tax the coorporations more. They want to do business here. We are the largest, most powerful market in the world. People like you, and the corporate powers, want to take from this market, and not put anything back. You want tax breaks for business, lets give them a break for every middle class job they create in our country. I'm not scared of them leaving, bud. There isn't a nation on this earth that would allow themselves to be raped like the US has. Go ahead, move on out. The US grew in prosperity not when taxes were at Reagan and Bush levels, but before that. We became number one when people paid in what they could, and the rich paid a bigger share.
You want to talk about entitlements? I have seen you call everyone here lazy. Explain to me how business owners such as yourself think it is ok to pay less than a living wage to the people on whose backs they make their fortunes. What makes someone like you entitled to a huge salary, when the people doing the actual work make $7 an hour? I don't know what your business is, and I don't care.
You brag about your military service, but ignore the tax paid benefits that came along with it. I support those benefits 100% but how dare you spit in my face when I'm the one paying the taxes that gave you those benefits.
So yes, if you make $250k a year you are GD right you should pay a higher percent in taxes. You should smile when you write the check, and be thankful that you can live so well when so many can't get any job better than waiting tables. AND you should get the hell over yourself. I will absolutely promise you that you haven't done jack compared to most of the people who you claim are lazy and leeching off the system with their SS and medicare. You wanna call me lazy, I'll meet you pal. We can work side by side stringing barbed wire and framing a house and you will call it a day long before the thought occurs to me and mine.
You are the picture of what went wrong in our nation.
How could we raise the debt limit EIGHT times under President Geo W. Bush and now it's a sin to do so?
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Where were the deficit hawks like Ryan? He voted yes to fighting two wars while cutting government revenue. He voted yes to Medicare Part D while NO PROVISION to pay for it. It's cost over $10 billion per year to day.
Ryan voted YES to Medicare Part D which contained NO provision to pay for itself and has cost billions per year since it's inception by Republicans.
So why is raising the debt ceiling such a horrible thing now when it was so easily done for EIGHT YEARS in a row? Where was the outrage back then?
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"I like to pay taxes, with them I buy civilization."
~Oliver Wendell Holmes, Jr.~
Too bad more of our wealthy citizens don't feel the same.
"Federal revenue is lower today than it would have been without the tax cuts. There's really no dispute among economists about that," said Alan D. Viard, a former White House economist under George W. Bush, in a 2006 Washington Post article.
Robert Carroll, deputy assistant Treasury secretary for tax analysis, also said that no one in the administration believes tax cuts created a surge in revenue. "As a matter of principle, we do not think tax cuts pay for themselves," Carroll said.
Bruce Bartlett, a Reagan economist who became a strong critic of the Bush administration's policies, used data from the Office of Management and Budget in a blog post last year to illustrate how "the Bush tax cuts reduced revenue rather significantly."
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/04/17/j…
eL, Haven't you heard? Our president is a blackety, black, black man. Heads exploded all over the old confederacy when he was elected. Now they can't sit in the corner and yell ni**er, ni**er, ni**er like they really want to. They can't win on the issues of Medicare and SS. They can't win on not raising taxes on the wealthy. So they drum up support within the tinfoil hat brigade by claiming he wasn't born here, that he's really a Muslim, that he's a socialist (I wish he leaned a little more that way). That rat f**ker, Franklin, spawn of Billy, has even jumped on the birther band wagon and cast doubt on President Obama's Christian belief. The problem is that most of the tea party/tinfoil hat brigade is on Medicare and drawing their SS. I look forward to enjoying their cognitive dissonance when they realize their best shot at maintaining a modicum of dignity in their old age lies with the black man.
I wish the rain would stop so I could haul my lazy a** outside to work in the garden.
Vigilante....Take a break from stringing barbed wire and watch the movie "Back to School" starring Rodney Dangerfield. Pay close attention when he's sitting in his Business Class and the Professor is detailing how to startup a business in a perfect world environment....The Professor asks the class where they should build the business and Rodney tells him "How about Fantasy Land".
That's where you're ideas might actually work.
China is sitting back and laughing at us....They want us to increase the corporate tax rates so the companies will move to their Country....Then we lose tax revenues and jobs....
While I feel for your grandfather....Our Country is BROKE!
S&P just put our debt on Negative watch for the FIRST TIME EVER and they will downgrade it within the next 24 months....
When that happens, holders will unload massive amounts of our debt and send interest rates soaring....
There's a reason why Gold and Silver are hitting all time highs today....
This is America....If you don't like what a Business is paying you then quit. Go back to school or learn a new trade. If you're working a job that pays $7/hr you have no one to blame but yourself. Your own choices/decisions in life put you in that situation.
Some business owners spend tens of thousands of dollars on their education, have a vision or creative idea and then risk tens of thousands to start a business and develop/market that idea. But you think I Shouldn't be entitled to a "huge" salary....Go screw yourself, If I spent the time and money on an education and took the capital risk, you bet your ass I'm going to pay myself what I want to....YOUR FEELINGS THAT WORKERS SHOULD BE ENTITLED TO EVERYTHING JUST BECAUSE THEY GET UP AND GO TO WORK IS WHAT'S WRONG WITH THIS COUNTRY!
>>The U.S. already has one the highest Corporate Income Tax Rates in the World. <
THAT'S TRUE!
However like with all rightwing talking points it hides a bigger truth.
"As I reported in June, while it's technically accurate that America has the second highest corporate tax rate of the 30 mostly wealthy countries of the Organization of Economic Cooperation and Development, in practice it has the fourth lowest corporate tax revenues among those nations, because of all the special tax favors we currently dole out to corporations and because many corporations shirk their patriotic tax responsibilities and park profits overseas.
Today even more evidence comes out to debunk the conservative corporate tax myth. The Associated Press reports (link via ThinkProgress) that a new U.S. General Accountability Office study finds 68 percent of U.S. corporations do not pay any taxes at all.
Conservatives concocted the corporate tax myth to conjure up an excuse for more corporate tax cuts."
http://www.ourfuture.org/blog-entry/200808…
Outliar....you have either eaten way too much Government Cheese or you need to put the Crack pipe down....
You might be the next poster child for drug testing anyone who receives government assistance/aid/handouts/entitlements....etc....
@elwood.....raise corporate tax rates and take away "Special Tax Favors"....Watch and see what happens....doesn't take a genius....
CFO, so, in your mind, everyone should start and run their own business? And those that don't, or can't, deserve to be treated like dirt? You really don't know anything about history at all, do you.
And China is sitting back laughing at us? So, your model here is China? Is that who you would like to emmulate? The largest communist nation on earth? That makes sense. Really, it does.
So, you are fine with entitlements, as long as what you feel you are entitled to. No CFO, I'm afraid you can go screw YOURSELF. I have no problem at all with the risk takers making more. Even a lot more. The problem is greedy pigs like you. Good for you for taking the risk, I'm afraid you think that entitles you to way more than it actually does. I think it is laughable that you took "a living wage" and turned it into "everything." Our nation is broke because people like you want to take take take. You actually believe you are better than everyone around you.
You would create a world with no middle class. That is the end result of your mentality. And your "quit and find a new job" advice? Yeah. Those are all in other countries, where pigs like you can pay workers what they are 'worth,' pennies on the dollar. Watch out, pitchforks hurt like hell, and castle's are flammible. The world you are creating is nothing new, we just have bigger weapons to take your self important buddies down with.
As for my grandfather, he will be just fine. You and your garbage ilk will never successfully rob the peole who paid in their whole lives. At least you better pray that you don't.
Don't know what smoking crack has to do with this. I will cop to the occasional glass of red wine, a margarita or gin and tonic here and there. Time to stop (again) responding to those raised by wolves
I feel entitled to Medicare and SS when I come of age because I paid into it.
If I wanted to gamble by retirement entirely in the stock market then I loose it all, win it all or some where in between.
But if I want to buy into a guaranteed return so that at least I have something - maybe not as much as I would otherwise, but something then I would prefer SS.
witness the most prominent symptoms of the zombie troll - complete disconnectedness with humanity.
Here's a simple graph that debunks the Corporate tax rate myth:
http://www.ctj.org/images/corp.gif
Vigilante.....America is a free market....if you think you're being underpaid or you're services are undervalued then QUIT and go test the free market. The real truth is that people like you are scared and refuse to take any risk.
Wonder where our Country would be today if everyone was scared and risk adverse as you are...
Or, "Wonder where our Country would be today if..." corporations paid an equeal share of taxes over the last 1/2 century.
>>Don't know what smoking crack has to do with this<
When hysterical or unethical people begin to lose a debate or argument they make up
disparaging things about the opposition to use as a defense when really they have none their argument is empty or lacking proof-evidence.
Somewhat akin to the straw man fallacy.
"What we learned under Reagan is that deficits don't matter."
V-President Dick Cheney, 2003
and someone who is risk adverse should not be without assurances of basic affordable health care or social security especially if they contributed the minimum to those system over their lifetime.
Moreso, the quality and completeness of health services to someone should be without regard to one's wealth or status. That's just basic human dignity.
Ah yes, I'm scared of risk. I wonder where our country would be if everyone was as arrogant as you are.
I wonder where our country would be if everyone focused on the dollar exclusively. I wonder where our country would be if our value of others was based solely on their monetary value. I pay my dues. I pay my taxes, and I work. I'm perfectly happy with my life. I want to protect those who have already paid their dues from people like you, who want to become even more well off on their backs, and let them rot in the process.
It's time for the 47% who don't pay a single penny in Federal Income taxes (and often get refunds due to tax credits) to start paying their fair share.....How about they take over for a few years and allow us to take a break for awhile....
I say everyone pays 10% minimum for Federal Income Taxes.....Is that too much for you guys?
I pay well over 10%. I earn enough that 10% of my income wouldn't put my family in the poor house. Why do the 47% not pay in, CFO? Why do you leave that part out? They don't pay in because they can't afford to. Because people like you want to pay them $5 an hour. I know, in your world, those people are supposed to live in tent villages close to the worksite, so they can get to work without a car. They can buy all their stuff at the pinkerton store, right?
vigilante....I've paid in for 22 years and I will gladly give up any claim to it if they start phasing those entitlement programs out over the next 3-5 years. Between the massive fraud occurring and the debt its racking up...its broken and bankrupt.....shut it down....
Our Country was built on people sticking their neck out and taking chances (risk). If you're scared too, that's your decision. But don't sit there and say your entitled to certain benefits or pay when you're doing the minimum to get by.
This is America and you have the freedom to test the free market if you want a better life....But stop bitching if you're too scared to do anything about it......It's not my fault...It's no ones fault but yours....
When it comes to focusing on the dollar.....Someone better get focused on it, because your BFF Obama is driving it into the ground.....Wonder how many trees this year have lost their lives at the hands of Obama's printing presses....
Itt can't reason well. As amusing as it is to push Itt's buttons (it ain't hard to do) it is a waste of cyberspace. Perhaps we should feel sorry for Itt as Itt could have Asperger's syndrome which according to wiki is an autism spectrum disorder that is characterized by significant difficulties in social interaction, along with restricted and repetitive patterns of behavior and interests. It differs from other autism spectrum disorders by its relative preservation of linguistic and cognitive development. Although not required for diagnosis, physical clumsiness and atypical use of language are frequently reported.
Apologies to anyone out there with true Asperger's rather than merely having "raised by wolves syndrome".
vigilante.....ABC News did a story last week about a Florida woman who makes $50,000/yr and pays NO Federal Income Tax....With Earned Income Credits she receives an average refund of $2,000 per year which she uses to take vacations to Cancun.
I have friends in HS Village who receive roughly $50,000-$60,000 in dividends each year and pay NO Federal Income Tax.....Do you know how much in savings it takes to generate that amount of Dividends in a 12 month period....here's a hint....2 commas....
Time for this 47% to start paying their fair share....Let's start by taking away those Earned Income Tax Credits...I'm sure the Mexican Resort will find a way to get by....
You may want to take a few minutes and educate yourself before you go blaming successful, hard working people for the bad decisions you made in your life....
I can see the value of a flat tax, everyone pays a percentage. Almost the closest I've come to agreeing with cf.
On one hand the tax system can be played by those who can afford to hire someone to play it for them. On the other hand tax breaks for the less wealthy ( the ones who pay little to nothing ) are an equalizer.
Either way the tax system has come to the point where all the credits and breaks take in less and less revenue leaving us less and less to spend.
Still medicare and ss take in what they spend and are in essence paid for programs. Overhauling how they are managed is what's needed, not cutting it.
Outliar....while you're online...why don't you e-mail Obama and suggest a "Government Seed Program" similar to the Government Cheese program....Since you spend so much time in your garden, there's no reason why your garden shouldn't be Government subsidized like everything else in your life....
You could be hire Vigilante for $8/hr to work in your garden and he would find out that the free market system in this Country truly does work....
no, you arrogant pig. I will not sit back for that. You keep with the 'this is America, if you are too scared to stick your neck out...." blah blah blah. In what world do you live? You keep going back to this idea that you are either a business owner or you are dirt and deserve to be dirt. What makes you entitled to your money? The risk? Was it not a risk the bank took with loans? Did the bank have my money? Do your employees take no risk working for you?
To you it is get as rich as I can at the expense of anyone else. What idiot wants to destroy the middle class, when it is the middle class that makes this nation possible?
And you keep saying you would gladly give up your SS, well do it. That is your choice. And what about my grandfather? What do you say to him? I know what you are saying, what you mean. You would have him die off, to save you some money. You lack the balls to say it out loud, but THAT is what you are saying.
And you keep coming back to these targeted statements. What bad decisions have I made, CFO? As stated, I'm happy with my life. I am all for raising the capital gains tax. Lets hike it up. What I oppose is throwing away the people who built this nation, calling them lazy, spitting in their faces, and sentencing them to death or bankruptcy after they spent their lives paying into the system. Lets close all the loopholes, including the ones your corporate buddies love.
And you should spend some time getting over yourself. Many of us are hard working for the good of the world, not our pocket books. You should take some time to examine some of those backs you climbed on to get up there, and maybe stop spitting on them.
Vigiante...in 1950 worker-to-beneficiary ratio was 16:1...it now stands at 3:1...Social Security is not sustainable....You have 3 choices.....Increase Payroll Taxes or Cut Benefits....Or both....
Obviously, you're against benefit cuts and you have made it clear you feel only the rich should be taxed more.....You're not even willing to pay your fair share to insure your Grandfather keeps his benefits....you think someone else should pay it.....
You're BFF Obama has made the situation for Social Security worse by cutting the Payroll Tax...
Social Security is a train wreck and our Country is bankrupt. We don't have the money to fix it and we're just making the problem worse for our kids with every day that goes by.....
It will be very painful for our Country but we don't have a choice....
"your not even willing to pay your fair share...." and you lie again. I said very clearly, I have no problem at all paying my taxes. I have a problem with people leaching off the system (the rich, and business owners who pay themselves what the please, as you put it, those who ship the jobs away, those who undervalue workers.) The rich have lost their way in our country. You all have forgotton who's money you took to get rich. You are like the nobles of France. They thought they deserved everything they got too. The trouble with capitalism is that eventually you run out of other people's money. You guys keep pissin away the middle class, what will you do when there is no one left to buy your goods?
The endless corporate quest for slave labor will result in another revolution like we saw in France.
The problem would be righted pretty fast if there were fewer yachts and more people earning enough to afford their taxes. How about instead of Super duper duper rich, you just settle for super rich? You can't, and won't. You feel you have earned what you have. You haven't earned it. You got it, you took it, but you haven't earned it. You talk about the painful cuts as though you will feel them, when you know damn well you will not.
You talk as though people want to take away all you have and put you in the poor house. That isn't the case. I want the people who create jobs to actually create real, pay the bills, raise a family jobs. Instead your kind looks for slave labor, as cheap as it comes. And you spit on the workers you find.
I hope you treat those who work for you better than your rhetoric implies.
I have allowed you to get to me. History has shown that in the end, your kind never win.
"Outliar....you have either eaten way too much Government Cheese or you need to put the Crack pipe down....
"You might be the next poster child for drug testing anyone who receives government assistance/aid/handouts/entitlements....etc...." -- cf
Oh my, how he does go on. It's one thing to have an honest difference of opinion, but he's going a bit too far. Glad I don't work with him. I can feel my face turning red as I read. If you wouldn't want to be around cf when he's on a tear, you really wouldn't want to be around me when my face turns red.
May I suggest shunning?
cf is starting to come around. They admit ss is broken and needs fixing but that we can't afford to fix it for the children's sake. ( Even though our children's sake is at more risk if its not fixed ). This tells me they have themselves taken care of and that is all that matters.
At the start of the day cd saw SS was an entitlement used only by the laziest of the lazy. Now after repeated postings by the humane and compassionate, its admittedly broken.
Next we agree that cf is not the only contributor of tax dollars, that a majority of baggers don't want to loose SS either and that the money is best used to fix an otherwise solvent system. Like, stop borrowing money from SS and not putting it back for starters.
Kisses to vigilante, el, ron and outlier. I would tell you to leave cf0 to his puerile, self-centered, Randroid rantings..."what are your masses but mud beneath my feet..." crap (although admittedly, I think even Ayn Rand would argue that the money in SS and Medicare was not the government's, but the people's), but I am truly thankful for your words and passion. I wish reason would prevail with these folks, but they are desperate to hang on to their myths of bloated self-worth and pompous disdain for the majority of people in the world, firmly believing in their own exceptionalism.
I enjoy reading your responses. It helps to reaffirm that there are people out there who do give a shit about others and recognize that the value of a person is more than the sum of what's in his pocket. cf0--you could be the richest man on earth and it means nothing to me, while the poorest man who hauls my ass out of a fire is to me, like a god.
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