Since we have a group of legislators who want to take us back to the pre-1970's and "religious" groups who fund raise by using hatred of "others" not like us (as if they really know), we will again be in our exalted 49th position (maybe lower if you count Guam and other federal territories) in equal rights. The best hope for Arkansans is always federal legislation which is also improbable with the Tea Pot brains there in the House (counting all 4 of ours).

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I think they want to further than the 70s, cbb, more like the 50s or earlier...back when women/minorities knew their place and government was ready to help keep them in their assigned roles should they forget to be grateful for their second-class citizenry.

One of the most impressive political moves Obama's made is the way he moved 'don't ask don't tell' into the dustbins...and he did it quietly and without holding a parade fro himself. I kinda suspect he, in part, traded rolling over for the Bush tax cuts for this victory for gays/military and non-haters. But what the hell do I know about all that DC horsetrading. They either make it so convoluted/complicated that I can't follow it or they piss me off so bad I can't follow it.

Nothing Obama does, however, seems to gain him any headway with certain segment of the 'liberals world. They seem to spend as much time, if not more, lambasting Obama than they do acknowledging those acccomplishments. (And that's aside from his GREATEST accomplishment yet: keeping McCain/Idiot out of the WH.)

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Spot-on, zelda. With each passing day, I grow increasingly frustrated by the looney libs who keep kicking Obama in the ribs. Too bad Teddy Kennedy's not still around to knock some sense into 'em.

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Since the Chamber of Commerce now recognizes that Little Rock shot itself in the foot, businesswise, by celebrating ugly discrimination during the Civil Rights period of the 1950s, I'm expecting the same gentlemen to be leading the battle against anti-gay bigotry right now.

It's so easy to discover enlightenment a half century down the road, when there's no real price to be paid for one's courage and insight. And I am convinced the gentlemen of the Chamber want to be considered courageous and insightful in the here and now, since their goal has always been to make our state the best place it can be in the here and now.

And since educated and creative people, and community-building businesses, still won't move to areas of the country that celebrate bigotry, we surely want to pay attention to the bigotry du jour, if we hope to enhance our city's and our state's quality of life right now.

I'm expecting some big new announcements in the near future from the Chamber and the big-monied men who pull all the strings in Arkansas, now that the Chamber is speaking out (some 60 years down the road) about the 1957 integration crisis. Those announcements will address, I feel sure, the serious damage that anti-gay discrimination does to our state when it comes to attracting and retaining creative, educated citizens, and bringing in and keeping good businesses.

I'll look for the announcement to address our state's total lack of laws protecting gay citizens from discrimination in the areas of housing, employment, access to health care, etc. I'll also expect the announcement to encourage all of our state institutions and our businesses to start offering partner benefits, since abundant research shows that state universities (and other employers) that don't offer these fail to attract the best and brightest employees.

I'll also expect the announcement to deal with the way in which religious groups spearhead the resistance to the rights of a marginalized minority (gays) right now, just as they did (in the case of people of color) in the 1950s and 1960s, and how we'll never make much headway as a state until we begin to educate ourselves about the often negative role religion plays in our state. And until church folks who claim to stand for decency and kindness open their mouths and speak out against bigotry and injustice when they risk something for doing so.

And I'll expect the announcement to note that we remain a culture in which a tiny handful of elite white married men run everything, and in which astonishing power and privilege is given to people on the basis of gender, skin color, and sexual orientation--and denied to others on the same basis. Making Arkansas a not very attractive place to live, if you happen to want the same quality of life those privileged heterosexual white men enjoy, but don't happen to have the marks of privilege with which they were born.

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Arkansas will follow suit after 48 or 49 other states do it.....right behind Utah, of course. Much similar to other issues like lotteries, casinos, dog racing, horse racing and alcohol on Sundays.

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It's not like there was a good alternative. You can't blame him. He has done really well considering his qualifications. He's way better than Sarah Palin. And, it was past time for a Black President. He got us half way there. Next we need a woman. It's really just an honorary position now that Wall Street is running things.

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So much to do for the rights of of gays, and the ball is rolling in the right direction.

The reason I abandoned the local Tea Party was their shift from issues of economics to one of pushing a hard religious agenda. I fought it, I argued against it, I ended up leaving.

Part of what I learned was how they were trying to use registration records to identify and target gays. One of the members told us of how she got a woman thrown off some AR university head for being lesbian. To my mind, that was a waste of opportunity as I joined and wrote and fought for our economic future, and there was this cabal that, once they had some success, deviated fomr their original goals.

I still debate them. I am civil, even when some of them tell me how I am going to hell because I make apologies for deviant behavior. Many claim there isn't one shred of scientific evidence that being gay is not a choice. They get rather quiet when I pile on the evidence, but they still persist.

Like the civil rights movement, it is all about education. You get these folks that think it really is a choice, and that you can change the wiring with prayer or denial or self-flagellation. It's a proccess, and I am ecstatic that the tide is turning. Maybe you will always have intelletcual derelicts like Clint McCance who would turn their children out, but those kids just might take note and start a little thinking for themselves. THAT is where the shift takes hold. I had a small fight with my own folks about the issue. Funny thing as they were both liberals of the FDR type, yet they had their own subtle prejudices. Took me a while to lay out some very simple facts of the matter before they admitted their ignorance. My parents are that rare breed of people who will rethink their lives. If they realize they were wrong, or unjust, they will adjust. My kids, for their part, are not ignorant in that way. My daughter and grand kids know about the diversity of folks and defend and celebrate it. They tend to judge folks on their actions and words, not things that are elements of nature.

It is a fight, but I truly see the shift coming, and it is for the good.

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Steven....you are so right in that our hope lies in the next generations.

I have nine grown nieces and nephews who range in careers from medical professionals, college professor, attorney, full time social activist, retired military, musician, etc. A very diverse group. However, as different as they all are, I am not aware that any one of them sees a gay person as anything other than another human being who is struggling for the same rights as everyone else.

I have great hope that this new generation will suceed were we have failed in placing value on all humans and understand that you don't adopt legislation to take away people's right. If new laws must be written, the laws should be to guarantee civil rights, not restrict them.

I believe the evil and hatred that exists in the hearts of some of the older generation and most of the far right will eventually be bred out and replaced by a more kind and loving population that isn't obsessed with putting a dividing label on anyone who is might think, act, look or believe something that might be a little different from who we are. We need diversity to make us stronger. But acceptance comes first.

Just my thoughts though.........

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"I'm sure a lot of dead innocents in any number of countries are proud to have been vaporized into a red mist by an American gay pilot or drone operator... and their president who reluctantly allowed them to come out of the closet while doing so."

Same ole crap...we're all terrorists unless we buy what you're selling. Luckily I'm from the non-holier-than-thou wing of liberalism so I simply think you're wrong.

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Remember Cato's link to Washingtonblog? Here's more on the story from DemocracyNow. "The Senate is set to vote this week on a Pentagon spending bill that could usher in a radical expansion of indefinite detention under the U.S. government. A provision in the National Defense Authorization Act would authorize the military to jail anyone it considers a terrorism suspect — anywhere in the world — without charge or trial. The measure would effectively
extend the definition of what is considered the military’s "battlefield" to anywhere in the world, even within the United States. Its authors, Democratic Sen. Carl Levin of Michigan and Republican Sen. John McCain of Arizona, have been campaigning for its passage in a bipartisan effort. But the White House has issued a veto threat, with backing from top officials including Defense Secretary Leon Panetta, Director of National Intelligence James Clapper, and FBI Director Robert Mueller.

http://www.democracynow.org/2011/11/29/bat…

Next question is "What the hell are Levin and McCain thinking?

There was also a good segment with the inventor of "pepper spray". He is horrified by how it is being used. Letters or calls to President Obama telling him to hang tough on the veto threat might be in order.

mountaingirl, I get the same vibe from my kids and their friends---even the evangelicals among them. Race and gender issues just aren't on their radar. They all have a live and let live attitude about it.

Durango and zelda, Driftglass is especially eloquent on the "both sides do it" meme so beloved by Eureka. I'll try to link to some of his posts or his podcasts with bluegal later.

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I meant to add that ES is very long on strategy and nonexistent on the tactics of how to reach the goals he espouses, many of which most of us here agree with. All I've ever gotten from his posts is "Stop voting for dems". His visions of a third party success do nothing about the fierce urgency we face now. I have no doubt that it will happen "some day". I also have no doubt that some day the Rockies won't be any higher than our present day Ozarks.

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I just simply warn the holdouts that they should be careful NOT to be the ICON of past hate.

The iconic photo of Hazel screaming at Minnie Jean.

Hazel sure wishes these 60 years later not to have been "the dinosaur" captured for posterity.

NOW, what difference does it make if homosexuality is choice or not? Smokers, overeaters, Nascar fans should not have a different set of rights than other citizens.

Smokers - free to smoke but keep the smoke away from others.
Overeaters - free to eat but don't make me consume deepfried butter.
Nascar - free to go deaf while getting slobber drunk with other mullet wearers but can't drive over the speed limit.
Gays - free to practice with any consenting adult but observe public codes all must adhere too.
Breeders - free to practice with any consenting adult but observe public codes all must adhere too.

I see no reason any one group above should have lesser or greater rights.

Prosecute anyone in gov't infringing on any rights citizens possess.

FINAL NOTE - Haters, be careful you aren't the one captured for posterity as the Icon of dinosaur "haters" such as Hazel Massery of the above picture.

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Outlier....sounds like you have done a good job teaching them what is important. They will pass it on.

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"You give no evidence to support you assertion Obama deserves credit while proactively name calling any potential disagreements. Then you provide no substantive rebuttal while just calling names at those who give specific reasons for disagreeing with you."

Lordy again, eureka...you/I have had so many LONG discussions (going back to before Obama was elected) about why each of us think the things we do that I assumed that I didn't have to rehash every point/argument each time I call you out on your theories/insults.

Talk about the pot calling the kettle...you regularly insult most folks on this blog by calling us terrorists/ignorant/blah blah. Which is OK by me given that disagreement is what political blogs are all about and disagreement is often a good thing.

Other than saying that you were from the holier-than-thou branch of liberalism I haven't called you any names (if I've forgotten please enlighten me). And if I've used an unsavory label to describe someone's words, I almost always give my reasoning (but not after I've done it at least 10 times or if it's a silly troll who's obviously trolling). Again...correct me by examples if I've failed to do thusly.

"And if declaring it wrong to vaporize innocents on a global scale no matter if one is gay or not makes me holier than thou.... and honestly acknowledging the motivations as to why MIC has been compelled to come around a bit.... all i can say is you should definitely try it. Besides, what i'm selling is free... or at least trillions less than your way. So practice up on your salient argumentative skills and basic addition... then get back to me."


What makes you holier-than-thou is that you go beyond stating your opinion and regularly call us ignorant and/or terrorists because we disagree with you. The ignorant is fine by me, but I call foul on being called a terrorist.

"You've turned into the wingnutty type of blind faith arguments you used to eloquently rebut a few years ago. Face it zelda, you and so many D's have been had."


Call me whatever you want, eureka, but my style of argument/way of thinking are the same as the day we first argued about Hillary. Sure facts change...which is why I CHANGED my mind about not supporting Obama...but core beliefs/style/etc don't. But I have been had several times by politicians, and a few individuals. The worst was buying that there was no difference between Al Gore/Clinton and Bush...ha...never again will I buy that BS. (Though I'm sure I'll be had by another politician...given I'm evidently not from the smart branch either.)

"So keep chasing off the liberals, z... I'm sure your beloved president won't need our votes. And our troops are getting boxed in more and more every day due to never ceasing hubris on both our neoliberal and neoconservatives military madness. But it' okay if A democrat does it."

Ha...as if my UN-eloquent, UN-substantial piddling little ole empty words could run off any one of substance. You give me too much credit, eureka.

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And in what millennium will your tactics succeed, Eureka? You make the perfect the enemy of the good. What I call pragmatism, you call selling out. You would rather have no health care reform at all rather than the flawed, but immeasurably better, reform we did get. You see the glass half empty on health care and other issues. I see the glass half full.

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"Durango and zelda, Driftglass is especially eloquent on the "both sides do it" meme so beloved by Eureka. I'll try to link to some of his posts or his podcasts with bluegal later."

This 'everyone's guilty so no one's guilty' is one of the worst legacies of the Bush Presidency/the Rove style of politics. (though its deep political roots reside in Ford's pardon of Nixon and the accompanying Democratic acquiescence). I despise it because it holds no one responsible for things like the horrid based-on-lies Iraq War, the collapse economy, Guantanamo and on and on. How are we to correct our errors if no one ever admits they were fuckups and no one is held responsible for them? One of the first excuses used by Bush's war gang was that 'everyone thought there were wmds, so we're not responsible that there were not any wmds.'

Then there's Obama's refusal to hold anyone accountable for the illegal war, torture, warrantless wiretapping and on and on...after all, it would indicate that there was actually something a President could do that he or she would be held responsible for. We now have the Imperial Presidency...unless it's a Democrat getting an extramarital bj then it's impeachment worthy.

When some one argues that Obama's Presidential sins are just as bad as Dubya's, I tune out because most of the time they're merely trying to excuse/justify Dubya's crap.

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ES is the Tommy Robinson of blog commenters. Everybody in the world -- I mean everybody -- is out of step with HIM.

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Zelda, Outlier, et. al., out of a desire to be helpful in this situation, I googled "tuning people out" and found this from a "Life Coach" site:

"Don’t feel like you always have to get the last word in to 'win' the argument! If someone holds their view so strongly, sometimes you need to accept that you just need to say your piece and then move on. If they seem to be trying to make you feel uncomfortable, then don’t give them the opportunity to repeat these remarks to you. Walk away from them when they are doing this if possible. If it’s not possible then just ignore them and don’t reward them with a reaction."

http://reachlifecoaching.com/2011/09/16/a-…

You're welcome!

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I would like to thank Max for stating the obvious;
those of us to the left of moderate can go elsewhere.
We have.


"Disregard those who volunteer to remain ignorant of truth"

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Has Eureka ever said whom he does like in the world of politics? As Max stated above, the whole world is out of step, except for him. His "pox on everybody" message gets real tiresome after several thousand repetitions.

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And yet no solution is presented for the identified problem.

“I tried being reasonable, but I didn't like it.”

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I can't believe 'Spock' finally got me to register/login (again) just to laugh at 'Spock' going "elsewhere."

Here to stay...The Reasonable Left!

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