Sunday, January 22, 2012
Religion Romney's Mormon problem; Huck's hypocrisy problem
Posted by Max Brantley on Sun, Jan 22, 2012 at 7:13 AM
Do Republican voters in the South have a problem with Mormonism? South Carolina exit polling provides a hint:
Exit polls show that 43 percent of voters who said that the candidates' religious beliefs mattered "a great deal" went for Gingrich. Only 9 percent went for Romney — a lower percentage than he netted overall, where he is running in second. In contrast, of voters who said the religious beliefs of candidates didn't matter to them at all, Romney won 42 percent.
So the self-professed South Carolina devout went for a serial adulterer over a church-leading family man.
Does Mike Huckabee, the Baptist preacher, have such a short memory that he forgets his own Mormon-baiting in 2008? No, he remembers all right. But, by his account, you just misremember it as a cynical and slimy play on religious bias.
Now, says Huck, not that there's anything wrong with being Mormon, Romney needs to give a little speech reassuring all the Baptists that he's not intent on making them believe in golden plates. He managed — classic Huckster — to drop an allusion to another favorite bit of religious bigotry in commenting on whether Mitt Romney's religion influenced votes:
"I'd like to believe that's not the issue," Huckabee told Fox Business host Neil Cavuto. "Four years ago, I was accused of making it an issue. It wasn't for me then, it isn't for me now. I would no more not vote for someone because they were Mormon than I would vote for somebody like Al Gore because he's a Baptist, for heaven's sake. I think that's a ridiculous reason to vote or not vote for someone, unless they've done something that's so wacky — like mix the blood of little children together in a public ceremony."
Blood libel, anyone?
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Comments (25)
Showing 1-25 of 25
I keep saying it and So. Carolina seems to support it. If Romney wins the nomination, Arkansans' bigotry over creed will trump their bigotry over race and the state will go Blue.
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First of all, everyone should have a problem with a fraud. Mormonism is a fraud.
Second, ever heard of the two wrongs doesn't make it right—or the tu quoque fallacy—argument? In other words, regardless of what Gingrich, Huckabee, or Pee Wee Herman has done wrong does not justify Mitt Romney doing something equally wrong, like misleading people concerning his political/religious ambitions as a Mormon.
Finally, it is always interesting that those in the Mormon polemical community constantly bring charges of "baiting," "bigotry," or "bias" into the argument rather than simply come clean concerning the charges brought against the Mormon worldview. What they fail to realize is that evasion is a fallacious defense as well, but that equally seems to go over their heads.
Therefore, Max, before you decide to write another blog entry in criticism of someone who has criticized your Mormonism, at least do the public a service and deal with those criticisms. If you think your Mormonism is Christian, then show us from the Bible—the sole guide for Christian thought for the past 2,000+ years—where it says that God is an exalted man who lives on distant planet siring "spirit children" with his polygamous wives. Show us where it says that Jesus is Satan's brother. Show us where sin was necessary to propagate the human race all the way to godhood. If you can't do that, then simply sit down and be quiet.
@CAPRO_info, go back and read the post again. I don't think that Max is a Mormon.
I believe he is working on Huckabee's two-faced approach to the Mitten's religion.
But, hey, I've been wrong.
@CAPRO_info. For Satan being Jesus' brother, look at Hebrews 12:9 "shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits" Ephesians 4:6 "One God and Father of all" So if Satan is a spirit, and God is the father of all spirits, then all spirits are brothers and sisters, including Jesus and Satan. This brotherhood, however, is just spiritually. Physically, Jesus is the the Only Begotten of the Father.
For the question about Adam, see 1 Timothy 2:14 "And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression."
Allow me to submit that it is not only possible, but usually is the case, that one associates with a range of beliefs that have little or nothing to do with one's faith. For example, any reasonably intelligent person in the year 2012 could not actually believe in "God, the father almight, maker of heaven and earth, and in Jesus Christ, his only son, our Lord...." Yet one who BELIEVES, instead, that this universe originated in the "big bang" about 13.7 billion years ago and that the origin of all forms of life extant on this small planet is better explained by the likes of Charles Darwin and Richard Dawkins, could still cling to a FAITH that one who "emptied himself, taking the form of a servant," was most nearly in harmony with the enduring structure of the universe and most attuned to whatever meaning human life may have.
If human community requires common BELIEF, we are all going to get pretty lonely; but there is hope for community and peace, if we seek an association of faith in common VALUES instead of common beliefs.
SO glad so many others see the same thing as I. In fact, below is what I said on the "Newt" thread last evening, for Razorbabies' regurgitation.
What I didn't say then but will say now is how delicious this all is!
The real reason nobody with any dogs in this hunt wants to make too much of Romney's Mormonism is that it bursts too many sensitive bubbles.
1) First, it leaves Christianity open to exactly the same scrutiny as Mormon, and NOBODY wants that because it threatens the game. Every time they say "amen" the faithful acknowledge Christianity's mythical origins in ancient -- at least 6,000 years old -- Egyptian astrotheology -- popularly derided by Christians as sun-worship.
2) The Christian myth (God as ghost debauches underage virgin in dream, arranges resulting child's betrayal, torture and death; calls whole sordid enterprise "Love". Priests acting in God's name form ensuing "faith" around threatening God who instills fear through a blood-and-death worshiping cult to which all must conform and tithe to be "saved") is no more nor less ridiculous, twisted and power-mad than the Mormon myth -- Moroni's golden tablets and Jesus traipsing around with a bunch of lost Jews nobody ever heard of in 1820's upstate New York.
3) American politics in the 21st Century is based on corrupt Big Money hiding behind religious superstitions to divide and conquer. There is an absolute litmus test for local, state and national politics that essentially requires conformity or at least lip-service to fundamentalist evangelical Christianity -- though at most such "faithful" comprise less than 25% of the population.
Another bubble nobody wants burst.
It's exactly like demanding that politicians express belief in a literal Thor or Zeus as their lord and savior if they hope to be elected to positions of leadership in 21st Century America. Or else.
4) Since NO myth-based religion holds up to literal scrutiny, best not talk about ANY of them or risk exposure of all of them. The last thing religions want is for their sheep to develop their god-given critical thinking faculties based on truths. No WONDER religions hate education and science. They rightly fear exposure from facts.
5) All this talk about Mitt's religion threatens to expose everybody else's foundational religious lies, thus ending the national goose-stepping charade of fear, threat, tithing, divide-and-conquer hypocrisy that calls rape / betrayal / torture / death "Love" and demands conformity and worship of a particular cult in exchange for power and influence.
6) Mitt Romney represents more than just pernicious religious influence in American politics and polices: he represents Big Business.
That's the biggest bubble that nobody wants burst. Religion IS Big Business. HUGE BUSINESS. Tax-free business! (Ask Kenneth Copeland or the Catholic / Mormon churches, et al. Or Mike Huckabee, ever-ready with a just-folks aw-shucks anti-Semitic blood-libel slur.)
But wait! There's more! Religion is used in so many profitable ancillary ventures like war-mongering and "defense" weaponry and "wars" against women, gays, education, etc., to keep people frightened, ignorant and fighting while the High Priests ride the gravy train.
Your Norma, of course, positively salivates with delight at the current gestalt!
The idiot posting above that, "Mormonism is a fraud," is the perfect example of the moat in the pot's eye calling the kettle black on the head of a pin or whatever.
But enough. Here's what yours and yours alone, my Razorbabies, said last night.
___________________
Newt’s win in South Carolina cinches it.
Anti-Mormon bigotry trumps anti-black bigotry.
Mittens’ Mormon church officially cursed blacks until 1978, when God pulled a switcheroo re: The Darkies. Till then they were black because they were bad. Or something. Suddenly they were cool, at least in public. Right on, right on.
Privately? Status quo.
On racism (big selling point for the GOP’s base), Mittens and Newt are equals. They cancel each other out. With either you still get to vote for a white racist to rep your white racism in the White House.
The Mormon thing, as feared, tripped and fell in South Carolina -- as it will in the south generally, and elsewhere – and can’t get up.
Rick Perry’s endorser Pastor Robert Jeffress is the only one who really tells it like it is, to coin another phrase from now-hip 70s black vernacular. He blared it so often and loudly nobody else had to chime in. “Mormons are a CULT!”
Newt’s a Christian. Mittens? Not.
Santorum? Catholic. Another cult. Another not-real Christian to Newtonians.
ALL the GOP contenders signed pledges to discriminate against women and gays. There too, no distinctions. A wash.
Same with all other issues from taxing the wealthy to abolishing universal health care and unions to endless war.
But for split hairs, they’re all alike.
For the 2012 GOP it comes down to who’s most authentically Christian.
I.e., who is the whitest, male-est*, most racist, sexist, homophobic, hypocritical and flamboyant reformed (presumably) cheating, lying, wheeler-dealing onshore / offshore crook and sinner of all.
THAT and nothing else is what qualifies the next GOP POTUS nominee.
* No offense, Michele or Sarah. But every Christian knows women are subservient. Who in all honesty was ever going to vote for somebody who has to kiss Marcus Bachmann’s ass flitting around on Pennsylvania Avenue.
Here's Slate's David Weigel reporting from South Carolina on MORE of What It All Means.
http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_pol…
South Carolina is just South Carolina. Maybe it is all about religion or maybe they want whoever is the most far-right candidate. The catch is that we are a center-right country so Mitt Romney's pretty much the best chance for us to have a GOP President. Personally, I am against abortion but I could never vote for someone who believes the government should be allowed to force a mentally retarded 12 year-old rape victim with health problems to carry her baby full term. There is such a thing as being too far right.
To which we must add James Carville's take: Republicans, you have a disaster on your hands.
http://www.cnn.com/2012/01/21/opinion/carv…
Sam, I would like to know where you draw the abortion line. It seems like you want it both ways, as long as you get to decide where the line should be drawn. Is abortion okay if a woman is carrying an anencephalic (no brain escept for a primitive brain stem) fetus which can only live a few hours or a day or two at most if carried to term? What if a woman is carrying conjoined twins with two heads and one torso and no hope of surgical separation? What about a woman who practiced birth control faithfully and had a failure? Keep in mind that most b.c. methods do not prevent conception; they merely prevent a fertilized egg from implanting in the uterine wall. How about a young widow with two kids already who can't afford to take the time off from work, even if she is willing to put the baby up for adoption? How about a woman with mental illness or severe depression who is simply incapable of carrying a pregnancy to term?
"Up with Chris Hayes" was superb this AM. Dave Weigel, cited by Norma, was interviewed from his post in South Carolina.
Some interesting points made by the guest panel:
1.Romney's tax cuts are 3X the size of Bush II's. It would mean huge cuts for the wealthiest and at the same time end the pay roll tax holiday for working Americans.
2. Gingrich keeps repeating his Alinsky schtick against Obama and the left while claiming to run against the elite in DC and Wall Street. Alinsky's whole raison d'etre is about how to wrest control of the levers of power from the elite. Gingrich wants it both ways.
3. Three of the four still standing argue for American exceptionalism which, according to David Stockman is neocon code for a foreign policy even more aggressive than Bush II, beating the war drums for intervention in Iran, maintaining a bloated military which is larger than the rest of the world's combined.
The whole show is worth your time. Stop wasting your time on the network gasbags who keep their jobs by kissing up to the power elite.
http://upwithchrishayes.msnbc.msn.com/
CAPRO_info, ALL organized religion is a fraud. So what's your point?
I doubt religious beliefs played as big a role as is being made, these candidates are all flawed heathens. Newt and Santorum are both Catholic, whcih may as well be Mormon or worse in the eyes of the southern Bible thumpers such as those at Bob Jones University.
The Bible thumpers went with the guy with the message with which they most identify: conservative, anti-establishment, anti-media and, most importantly, angry. The messenger doesn't really matter in this case.
Comments longer than the article itself---You guys need to go church on Sunday or something.
Next time, I could break it up into two posts for you Ray. Do you know how to scroll down? No one is making you read anything.
SO Christian male. Excusing one's shortcomings by claiming size doesn't matter.
Now that you've commented on the comments, got something to actually say, Ray?
bottom line is.....South Carolina is South Carolina. As one who lived there, and went to yes, BJU schools, the " Bible thumpers" would vote for a "papist" Catholic before a Mormon any day. And yes, Newt, with all his baggage also.Newt feeds off the anger that is out there.Like him or not, he has the capability to beat Romney.The tax issues unseen yet, shelters and offshore accounts will hurt what hasn't been hurt already. James Carville, as usual, is right.Read this week's New Yorker on Newt. They have it right, and Newt will feed off all this all the way to Tampa.
Norma no one enjoys reading your wit and wisdom more than me however,
let's go back 2170 years to borrow some economy from Seneca (Lucius Annaeus Seneca)
'For the foolish religion is true
for the wise, false,
For the politician, useful.'
MoMoney is still the lord n' savior of us all. Just ask Hoodlifter.
What a choice in SC-a serial adulterer, a member of a cult (by definition every branch of religion is a cult including SBC, Catholic, or any other protestant sect). or an overly religious twit with plans similar to the Taliban for his "Amerika". Oh, and the crazy uncle in the closet. Too bad Hunsman dropped out, he may have been Mormon but he at least was sane.
>>he may have been Mormon but he at least was sane.<<
May have been the only game in town for him. But sanity is broadly defined, isn't it.
The results in South Carolina mirrored the winner's recent tactics. It was all about bigotry and those who embrace bigotry, racial, ethnic and religious.
Don't know if Mormons frown on dancing like they do caffeine and did on Darkies but I AM ever mindful of the median age of you A-T bloggers and constantly project visions for your hap-hap-happy tomorrows!
All I know is, if Marcus Bachmann were a straight Mormon with rhythm (see how even in glitter tops, Razorbabies, you can tell the straight ones from the you-knows?), you'd be lookin' at THIS -- from y'all's neck of the woods.
http://www.youtube.com/v/uNE3YSr_o2A%26fea…
Count 'em! Two partners! (Catch the first one's quick squeeze of his junk.)
I hope every guy that dancer's age gets a three-way, don't you.
Mormons’ theology is based on New Testament Christianity, not Fourth Century Creeds. For example, the Church of Jesus Christ (LDS) views on Baptism, Lay Ministry, the Trinity, Theosis, Grace vs. Works, the Divinity of Jesus Christ comport more closely with Early Christianity than any other denomination. And Mormons’ teenagers have been judged to “top the charts” in Christian Characteristics by a UNC-Chapel Hill study. Read about it here:
http://MormonsAreChristian.blogspot.com
According to a 2012 Pew Forum poll of members of the Church of Jesus Christ (LDS) 98 percent said they believe in the Resurrection of Jesus Christ, and 97 percent say their church is a Christian religion. Mormons have a better understanding of Christianity than any other denomination, according to a 2010 Pew Forum poll:
http://www.pewforum.org/Other-Beliefs-and-…
11 of the signers of the Declaration of Independence (including several presidents) were non-Trinitarian Christians. Those who now insist on their narrow Trinitarian and salvation-only- by-grace definition of Christianity for candidates for public office are doing our Republic an injustice.
LOVES it, Mormons Are!
"Comport more closely with Early Christianity than any other denomination."
"Mormons’ teenagers 'top the charts'."
(What? Number 5, rising with a bullet in Billboard? LOVES it!)
Yours is better, yours is better, then!
Pssst, Mormons Are: THAT Three Card Monte game over there is crooked. THIS one over here is legit. Come on in!
For Razorbabies who don't get out of the house much, or out of their mental boxes, here's the world's favorite con after religion, Three Card Monte.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o2kO_5cNF5k
Of course Mormonism is a cult - it's based on a complete fabrication "The Book of Mormon" which is simply copied by Joseph Smith from a novel "The Manuscript Found"
http://www.angelfire.com/az2/arizonadry/tr…
The only sensible Mormon is an ex Mormon. . .
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