Arkansas Blog

This military bunch leading the Iraqi Freedom operation are the people who led Operations Desert Shield and Desert Storm a decade ago. I recall this generation of Vietnam era officers received praise for not repeating the mistakes of their commanding officers in the Vietnam War. So, what happened between 1991 and 2003? Apathy? Career conscience? I think Colin Powell is a shining example of that generation of officers who moved from responsible military leadership to one of acquience just to fatten their material status in their retirement years.

It would be easy to say they were intent on fattening their retirements, and it might even be true.

But, I think the far more reasonable explanation is they were cowed into submission just like most of the rest of the nation.

Remember the Dixie Chicks? They were called everything in the book, the D*G's own Jennifer Christman piled on for a while (she's been silent on this lately). Remember Max Cleland? John Kerry? Every person who questioned 'glorious leader' was made out to be a traitor or coward.

Personally, I blame the news media most of all. They just lapped up every lie Grampa Rummy had to spew forth.

Military men criticizing civilian leadership during a time of war. That is something new. Planned by Howard "DNC" Dean, and probably part of a longer planned run up to the November elections. This is a sad state of affairs. Maybe Howard and John Kerry can re-create the atmosphere of the Vietnam era. But maybe they are leading us down the road to permanent minority status. Please tell these folks to shut up. If they retired from the military, they should stop trying to promote their own book deals to the detriment of the men and women from Arkansas currently serving in harm's way. We do not appreciate comments like these!

Evil persists because good people do nothing. It is right to criticize our leadership. They deserve and invite it. More importantly, implying that criticism isn't patriotic is implying that our forefathers died for nothing.

In my experience, when you start being criticized by your former friends and colleagues, you had better take a long look in the mirror. The problem isn't with them -it's with you.

"But, I think the far more reasonable explanation is they were cowed into submission just like most of the rest of the nation."----70%

There is no denying the press were cheerleaders for this adventure and it is true bullying went on and still does. But I'm not buying that "cowing" worked with all. Many citizens spoke up and the military definitely should have, if they opposed the operation. It was their duty, it was their obligation to express oppostion BEFORE the green light was given, but once the decision was made then their duty was and is to carry out the polices of the civilian leaders. The history of the 1951 MacArthur's episode should have driven these principles home.

"We do not appreciate comments like these!"..Arkansas Dem.....

Perhaps you are falling into the old entrapment of generalizing when you say "We do not....." "We" is not all inclusive I and many others do appreciate it. And yes, I have had a son to return from the Middle East in near recent past. I was lucky. He returned. Gawd, I hate to think about these precious American people over there doing a stupid man's bidding of folly. I support the troops by wanting to get them all home as quickly as possible. But his President has already announced getting them home will be responsiblilty of the next President. Is anyone really surprised by that announcement?

Former senator labels handling of war immoral

Senator Max Cleland:

"It is immoral to abuse the good nature of our young people, and send them back and back and back (into combat) ... with no strategy to win, and no strategy to end" the war,Cleland said.

http://www.thecabin.net/stories/042306/loc_0423060018.shtml

The people that voted for this war are the immoral ones just as much as the ones who continue to send them back to be maimed by roadside bombs or die.

If it were not for the Congressional members that VOTED YES to two wars, we wouldn't be in either one and on our way to a third. There is no washing the blood off these people's hands.

Evil persists because good people do nothing

Roland, you couldn't be more right. Keep those pearls of wisdom posted.

" Please tell these folks to shut up. If they retired from the military, they should stop trying to promote their own book deals to the detriment of the men and women from Arkansas currently serving in harm's way. We do not appreciate comments like these!

Posted by: Arkansas Dem with a child in Iraq | April 23, 2006 02:00 PM"

Don't you see the only way to get your child home is to expose the folly of this war. No one on this blog would wish harm to come to your child or anyone else in Iraq.

But the longer we're in the meat grinder known as the Iraq War the more fine American kids will come home in a body bag. If this was WWII, or even if the Bush administration A. had a good reason to attack Iraq and B. had clue how to throw a war, I'd be finding a way to help win the war.

This war is not winnable unless the American people are willing to kill every non-American in Iraq. And to what purpose, what reason do we have to do such a thing?

And who better to let the American people know what is going on in Iraq than recently retired US Generals, just home from Iraq? These men are patriots and rather than get rich on book deals, they're risking everything they've spent their lives working for by speaking out.

Too bad for the Iraqi people, but I want our troops home for Christmas. If our aim was to find WMD, we didn't...come home. If our aim was to oust Saddam, we did....come home. Jesus himself couldn't tame the Middle East, Bush won't either. Don't let him kill your child for a greedy neo-con theory.

It's my hopes that your child comes home safely and lives to be 104. But the chances of that happening are diminished for him or her....as is the chance of safety for the world with the likes of Bush-Cheney in office. We were bound to have a bad apple after 230 years......and boy do we have one now. The truth shall set us free!

I recall this generation of Vietnam era officers received praise for not repeating the mistakes of their commanding officers in the Vietnam War.

I've often heard GOP commentators and retired soldiers recount the mistakes of Vietnam, perhaps rightly blaming LBJ for micromanagement from Washington and the fact that the military was expected to fight with one hand tied behind their backs rather than being allowed to run their war full blast their own way.

They always said if the GOP had control, it would all be done the right way and all would just be hunky dory.

Well, now we know. Bush and Rummy have raised micromanagement to new heights as they're overseen a war run on the cheap, with insufficient numbers of troops and equipment.

These are the folks who always loved to jump on the Democrats, calling them soft on defense for any cut backs in the military, any cancellation of an unneeded, wasteful weapons deployment.

And now they get in control and really show us how to do it right: skimp on the war equipment so more money is available to pass on in contracts to Halliburton.

Uncle Sam has a long reach on his nephews... Military retirement pay is simply "reduced compensation for reduced services," and while it may take some doing, these fellows still hold one of the President's commissions and can be called back at his discretion.

Back when I took the Army's command & general staff course for field grade officers, we went thru a lot of theory and proven doctrine on just what it means, and what it takes to commit the nations' resources to war. Nearly every one of those principles was ignored in the planning of the Iraq War... and having read "Cobra II" over the past weekend for a little continuing development, nearly every finger points straight back to Mr. Rumsfeld. All of it was consistent with the impression and feedback I got of Mr. R during my time on active duty.

The folks who wear bars, leaves, eagles, and stars in the U.S. armed forces subscribe to an oath, and a mantra which includes loyalty, duty, respect, selfless service, honor, integrity, and personal courage. While you're standing up in front of the troops, you don't belittle the boss. But there does come a time now and then when you have to speak up for what's right, and take the consequences for it, whatever those might be. It ain't at all about book deals or time on cable TV news. (Most of the warriors of my generation look at the media as being far more worthless than a ragheaded hajji with the screaming trots anyway.)

Major U.

Most of the warriors of my generation look at the media as being far more worthless than a ragheaded hajji with the screaming trots anyway.) Posted by: Up The Road

That's about what I figured. I think it's human nature to have disdain for anybody who has the power to keep you from doing everything you want. The American media are a great check on all segments of our nation. Their watchdog, tattletale nature might cause grief to some folks, but this country would certainly be worse off without them. Whistle blowers don't get a lot of fan mail, but they sure do us all a great service.

I'd rather face an out-of-control media than an out-of-control government (otherwise known as the Bush administration).

It's tiring how many less-than-stellar politicians try to lay all their crap at the media's door. For crying out loud, if ya don't do anything wrong, the media won't invent stuff (well, for the most part). And, the media are s'pose to be asking questions and reporting your uh ohs.

After what Bush/Cheney have done to the military, have done in Iraq, it's amazing that so many members of the military still rant on about 'liberals' as they bow down to the glorious Republican party. It's also demonstrative of how well the Repubs have sold their shit as a bed of roses.

I served in 1970-76. I and many fellow veterans did not believe in the war, but we took an oath to uphold the Constitution and defend it against all enemies foreign and domestic.

Most of us upheld that oath throughout our service and could not wear our uniforms in public on leave without being called "baby-killers" and worse. That was not pleasant, but part of why I served was so protesters could voice their opinions. Upholding my oath was a matter of personal honor and did not depend upon support and nice words of approbation from civilians, "brass-hats" or politicians.

Remember that some of these officers may believe they are continuing to uphold that oath against enemies of the Constitution. They deserve honest and serious consideration not the blanket condemnation the Bushites are bandying about.

There were politicians, protesters and "brass-hats" that I considered enemies of the Constitution then and I spoke out when I could, legally, against them.

Just listen to these people with an open mind and support getting to the truth. That's patriotism, not blind obstinacy and name-calling.

Do support the soldiers and sailors overseas, but know that 99% are defending the ideals of our constitution and our country not the decisions of temporary holders of political office or military command.

"I've often heard GOP commentators and retired soldiers recount the mistakes of Vietnam, perhaps rightly blaming LBJ for micromanagement from Washington and the fact that the military was expected to fight with one hand tied behind their backs rather than being allowed to run their war full blast their own way."

Stabbed in the back is always a popular crutch used by defeated generals. The big error of LBJ was listening to the "experts," who advised him that a huge of escalation of US forces in Vietnam would send the little yellow skinned Viet Cong running (the 1965 version of 'shock and awe.'). LBJ gave the military all they asked for, to this nation's eventual regret.

The leadership was so bad that the company grade officers in Vietnam started a movement known as G.R.O.W.N., "GET RID OF WESTMORELAND NOW!." Fragging of officers became a common occurence. Anthony Herbert and other career company grade officers wrote volumes in denouncing the clowns who created the policies leading to disaster in Vietnam. It's much too long to catalog here. But Westmoreland wrote his book, toured college campuses and his central theme was he was stabbed in the back by the politicians back home, along with those desiring peace and commies and socialists. He remembered how well it worked for the German military after WW I.

I keep telling myself that this era of GOP ism (image is more important than substance)is only a fad and will fade away as fast as the equally distastefully 70's polyester leisure suits.

I just think it hilarious that military professionals are criticized and demeaned by GOP "brain-strained" talking heads that never served and couldn't tell the difference between this is my rifle and this is my ....

Funny how the blog entitles this string "Young officers join war critics" while the NY Times entitles the article "Young Officers Join the Debate Over Rumsfeld". Nice spin Max - I am not surprised that you left out the fact that some of these young officers aren't critical of the war.

From the same article....

"The stances that emerged are anything but uniform"

"Many officers who blame Mr. Rumsfeld are not faulting President Bush - in contrast to the situation in the 1960's, when both President Lyndon B. Johnson and Defense Secretary Robert S. McNamara drew criticism over Vietnam from the officer corps. (Mr. McNamara, like Mr. Rumsfeld, was also resented from the outset for his attempts to reshape the military itself.)"

And John Murtha says:

U.S. Rep. John Murtha, continuing his criticism of President Bush's handling of the Iraq war, said today it would take more than Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld's resignation to restore Bush's credibility in the Middle East and with the American public.

The only way Bush can show he is ready to seriously change direction and pursue a diplomatic solution to the war is if he makes "substantial" changes in his administration, Murtha told about 100 people attending a luncheon sponsored by the World Affairs Council of Pittsburgh at the DoubleTree Hotel, Downtown.

"Nobody can believe these guys anymore," Murtha, D-Johnstown, told reporters after his speech, in which he listed the reasons he believes the Bush administration has "mishandled, mischaracterized and misrepresented" the planning and management of the war.

Whether it's Bush's fault or not that things are going badly in Iraq, Murtha said, "he's getting blamed for it, so he needs to make some substantial changes" in his top staff. "He's got to let loyalty and friendship take a subservient position to the good of the country."

Unless "we replace the people responsible for the failed plan" the U.S. will not be able to get the international help and cooperation it needs, Murtha said during his half-hour speech. He also again criticized Rumsfeld, saying he andBush "were wrong when it came to Iraq" but "won't admit it."

Though the president touts the elections in Iraq as evidence of success in the war, Murtha said in reality "we have lost the hearts and minds of both the Iraqi people, and as the polls indicate, of the American public and, obviously, of the world."

?

Drew, leave the homophobe/hatemonger be and don't encourage him.

I actually was impressed by what Drew Pritt did in that LG race, he had some verve that other candidates lack. They all should be so outspoken. He also seemed to have a backbone. Many of the rest are missing spines. I will also say that since you dropped out of the race it's been fairly boring. Thanks for the bit of excitement...

Re: khaki's and catfish - last year that party was a blast, had a live band, dancing, food and fun for the whole family. This year I heard it was pretty boring, candidates talked way too long and no dancing music.

The description of bad food, uncomfortable chairs boredom makes me glad I didn't bother.
DPA, let's go back to the old way of doing JJ and Khaki's, at least those were popular events the folks enjoyed.

I do like Max Cleland tho, sorry to have missed both he and Marion's speech.

I was an officer in the Army during the Vietnam War. I love to hear people complain about the war and not utter one word of derision for the fact that we have placed women in harms way just to satisfy a few radicals. The ones who promote this idiocy are not eligible to go nor have they ever been in combat. Those of you who call yourselves men while content to let women do your fighting for you should be ashamed. However, we both know that you're not.

If Soccer Moms can drive around with W stickers on their Suburbans, then they can by God go fight for what they stand for.

Compared to Americans, there are probably 100 if not 1000 times more Iraqui women (and children, for that matter) in harm's way and being killed just so neocons can continue to "stay the course" (read: "don't admit mistakes").

Excellent logic, hot shot. If some women and children are in harms way then you should put more there. The lace on your underwear is showing. Obviously you are not a Veteran and have no earthly idea what you are espousing.

I commend you on your service, Gary from Little Rock. I am sure the majority of bloggers would agree. You see, some of us are not veterans. We are citizens. Some of us weren't old enough to serve in Vietnam, but we have had plenty of time for study and critique of past military conflicts. Hopefully you don't think it is "us against you" with regards to the military. I, for one, support the military, whether it be paying my taxes or exercising my right to free speech.
However, when the patriotic card is pulled by people like you, it weakens the image of the military. Just because you were schooled on weaponry and tactics, doesn't make your opinion more or less important than ours.
If you want to support the follies of this administration, fine. But don't chuck stones at those of us that find it insulting to be lied to by our commander-in-chief...

Rosso...I vividly remember the likes of you when I went in the service during Vietnam. You denegrate those who realize that we have enemies out there. You are so eaten away with your hatred of Bush that you can't see the real world that we live in. The 'last refuge of a scoundrel' is not patriotism. It is blind political hatred. Wake up, kid. I have not only the advantage of serving my country as a 'GI Joe' but living long enough and smart enough to see the traps that the enemy feeds upon.

Well, Gary from Little Rock, I guess you are right. I definitely didn't recognize that Saddam Hussein was peering over my fence. Maybe we should all start building bomb shelters again...no, wait...we have duct tape and batteries.
Speaking of "blind political hatred", I learned long ago it doesn't do anyone any good to "hate." And as far as being "smart enough to see the traps that the enemy feeds upon," please don't rip off what doesn't belong to you...

rosso----I don't believe that I can convince you that an enemy threatens us. Immediately before WW II, the America First Committee convinced Americans not to oppose Hitler and Tojo even when their intentions were obvious. History never really changes because of the human element.You are no different. The point I have been trying to make with you is that when you finally do realize the threat it will be too late.

rosso----I don't believe that I can convince you that an enemy threatens us. Immediately before WW II, the America First Committee convinced Americans not to oppose Hitler and Tojo even when their intentions were obvious. History never really changes because of the human element.You are no different. The point I have been trying to make with you is that when you finally do realize the threat it will be too late.

Call me crazy...just can't really see the comparison between Saddam and Hitler or Tojo...much less the threat Saddam was to us. In fact, with our bumbling the invasion of Iraq (not militarily), we have created more of a threat than existed. But what do I know...just a lowly citizen paying taxes and speaking my mind, hoping to see our troops come home soon...

Well, I know what it is like, up close and personal, to be in harms way and wanting to come home. Any American wants to see the troops come home as soon as possible but not in defeat only to fight another day with greater loss of life.

god damn can you guys or guy lay off the tag team?
it seems like you war heros are in favor of the doctrine of pre-emption. fine... it's a free country.
i would point out that the same pre-emptors were against Clinton going to Yugoslavia to stop that bloodbath. it seems like they were also against pre-empting bin laden when he was training in Afghanistan. no pre-empting N Korea. no pre-empting in Iran. no pre-empting in the Soviet Union. and finally no pre-empting in New Orleans.. are you saying Dubya is sitting in his air conditioned ranch and using the failure of our intelligence to warn of Japan in 1941 to justify going to Iraq? since Iraq couldn't even drop a bomb in the Tigris or Euphrates i doubt he was much of a threat to Turkey, much less US soil.... please present us with a more compelling argument than pre-emption. it doesn't hold here.

Comparing Iraq to WWII is a total insult to veterans of that World War. Except for the fact that we're the ones taking preemptive action this time, not the Japanese or Germans.

I notice Merle Haggard has a song out. Guess what it's about:

"Lets get out of Iraq and get back on track and let's rebuild America first."

Oh, Anonymous. You seem to know little about the America First Committee, including its constituents or its agenda.

As to constituents, they included both a Republican and a Democratic Senator, as well as a (then) national hero, Charles Lindbergh.

Their platform, #s 1 and 2 of which I suspect you would agree with, was as follows:

1. The United States must build an impregnable defense for America.

2. No foreign power, nor group of powers, can successfully attack a prepared America.

3. American democracy can be preserved only by keeping out of the European war.

4. "Aid short of war" weakens national defense at home and threatens to involve America in war abroad.

In the end, of course, we did enter the war. Frankly, I think the US could have left it to the Europeans to sort out (it would have been nasty, either way), except it was starting to erode our prosperity.

You seem to think WWII was a good thing. You read too many Crusader romances in your youth.

One more tidbit of history. Some of the America First Crowd and on the other side of the ocean, some people like the Duke of Wales held a theory that if England could lay low and if America could stay out of WWII that Hitler and Stalin would go after each other and do each other in quickly.

Of course we'll never know if that theory would have worked, but having such a theory sort of removes those people from being branded cowards or pro-Hitler.

They just had another theory of handling the problem of 2 unpleasant dictators by letting them chew each other up instead of millions of our allied soldiers. There is often more than one way to skin a cat honorably.

It is a good thing that you guys were not around in 1941. We would all be speaking German or Japanese. You forgot another distinguished alum of the America First Committee---Gerald Ford. Charles Lindberg is no hero of mine but he is more closely aligned with you guys---he saw absolutely no reason to go to war regardless of the circumstances.

I don't hate Dubya nearly as much as his intolerant warmongering supporters who act like the only recourse a great country (or person) has is wacking the world with a big club...ug ug.

And where were Dubya/Cheney/Rove during the Vietnam war? Oh, and don't forget Limbaugh's boil.

They were dodging the draft with Bubba and probably like you

will one day. Short of an enemy approaching the US in landing boats, guys like you wouldn't lift a finger. You and Neville Chamberlain deserve each other.

It's telling of your mindset, gary of little rock, that you assume all people who don't constantly bang the war drums must be cowards.

So you don't support Bush?

First commie sumbitch that crosses the river bridge into Fort Smith had better say his prayers cause I can get a clear shot at him from atop my house. Commies.....you've been warned!

But the lack of danger I felt from the North Vietnamese growing up, I now also lack when thinking about angry guys with bombs strapped to their chests in the country of Iraq. I actually fear Exxon more than I fear cave dwellers from the Middle East.

Are we a little paranoid, Gary? Did Mommy not breast feed when you were born? I have been working on a project videotaping WWII veterans. So far the 13 old men I've spent an afternoon with have been to a man, against the war in Iraq.

It seems people who have actually experienced the horrors of war are the very last people who want to start another one. This is a major problem with the draft dodging Bush administration. Our disastrous war in Iraq is being conducted by cowards who ran from the Vietnam War in their youth. Now, with zero war experience they're gung ho to send out sons and daughters into the meat grinder in the Middle East. How brave of them!

You're pathetic support of a President, himself so cowardly he refuses to meet with the American public unless they are pre-screened to only include his worshipers is laughable. Your tough guy continues to run from Cindy Sheehan. He was defeated and nearly killed by one salty pretzel, if you'll recall.

So it's people like Gary who have given the world the likes of Napoleon, the Kaiser, Hitler, Stalin and Bush. They suspend belief in facts and only cuddle up to myths they make up in their own mind. Your George W. Bush is a dangerous myth. Ask any Iraqi, ask the families of the 2390 US soldiers who have died for oil in Iraq. Ask a WWII veteran.

Anyone who has seen war up close and personal knows it is something to be avoided unless there is no acceptable alternative. However, appeasement is no answer. We appeased Hitler and millions of people paid the price. What I object to are people who are willing to pay any price to appease an enemy that eventually costs many more lives. In November of 1941, 84% of Americans (Gallup Poll) saw no reason to go to war with either Germany or Japan. All of Europe was enslaved by Hitler. England was hanging on by their fingernails. China and much of Asia were under the brutal yoke of Japan. Still there were people who didn't see the danger. That same condition exists today except for a few that know we can't afford to make that same mistake again.