Arkansas Blog

" Arkansas college professors who teach freshman-level courses concerning the.."

Unless things have changed dramatically, most freshman and soph classes are taught by graduate assistants and not by professors.

"Only about 40 percent of professors say they are "somewhat satisfied" with the job Arkansas public high schools are doing in preparing students for college."

So, they separated their findings into public school students and private school students?

I will say this once again: high school students who take the college prep classes in high school successfully are prepared for college work. Those high school students who avoid the college prep classes for reasons I won't list and then head off to college generally have a hard time with college work until they get caught up on their own by their junior year. If they don't get caught up, there is no junior year for them.

But this can't be. Every year the local high school has 8 or so co-valedictorians ,all with 4.0+ grade points.

In comparison, the year I graduated from the same school we had only one valedictorian, and he graduated with the first 4.0 grade point anybody could remember. The school was only about 5% smaller then than now.

Is it possible schools are handing out grades too cheaply? What favor is that to college-bound kids?

Cato, I'm going to have to disagree with you on a couple of points--

1. Most classes are taught by professors. At the university where I did my undergraduate work (UALR) I had only one class during my undergrad career taught by a graduate assistant. At the university where I did my graduate work (Auburn) I had one class (a freshman level Spanish class) taught by a graduate assistant. At Auburn, there were indeed a few classes taught by graduate assistants (I actually taught a couple of them) but this number was small and declining. Labs were a different story--they were almost universally taught by TAs. At the university where I currently teach, I don't know of a single class taught by graduate assistants.

2. Students that have taken college prep classes don't seem to be much better prepared than those that have not. Far and away the worst problem that incoming freshman have is a complete lack of study skills, and apparently the AP classes don't help in this. The way that most college classes are taught these days, any kid with a lick of intelligence should be able to get through just about any college course--if they understand how to study. This is especially true of freshman level courses. However, every semester, I see bright kids that flounder simply because they don't understand the concept of studying.

I can't tell you how many times I've had this conversation with a student:

Student: Dr. Archaeopteryx, I studied very hard for your class, and I still got a 38 on my exam. I don't know what I'm doing wrong.

Archaeopteryx: Please tell me how you studied.

Student: I came to class every day. I looked over my notes before the exam. For a whole hour!

You can say whatever you want about the level of difficulty in the public high schools--I'm not there, so I can't argue one way or the other. But I can tell you definitively that freshmen get to college without any understanding of what it means to study. If a kid knows how to study, there's no freshman college class he can't get through. If not, they're going to have a terrible time until they figure out some study skills. In the meantime, they get crappy grades. If a kid wants to go to med school or pharmacy school, a couple of semesters of poor grades can ruin that for them.

Quick! Get those kids some bibles! Gideons! Where are you?!

Archaeopteryx and Spirit....the next time you go into the office of some professional, whether it be medicine, dental, education, law, whatever....take a look at their degrees and see if most are not from some public institution of learning. Public. And most of them came out of the public secondary schools.

And perhaps, Archaeopteryx, things have changed. When I attended the UofA, I never had a professor in my English courses until a junior and the same true of math. Just about the only frosh/soph classes I had taught by professors were in the history dept. Perhaps that's why I majored in history.

"Archaeopteryx and
Spirit....the next time you go
into the office of some
professional, whether it be
medicine, dental, education,
law, whatever....take a look
at their degrees and see if
most are not from some public
institution of learning. Public."

Of course. Agreed. Didn't mean to say anything that implied otherwise.

But I also know that kids today are no more intelligent than 30 years ago and I'm suspicious when I see 10 4.0 grade points EVERY YEAR in graduating classes of 125 kids. We didn't come close to that way back when...

I just worry that high school is too easy these days, and it looks like the survey released today (top of this page) backs that up. A lot of kids were taking remedial basics in the 70s, but it sounds like the problem is getting worse, not better.

I think it's to much time spent on cool new, fun, alternative classes and not enough time spent really learning the basics like reading, writing and arithmetic. If I sound like a curmudgeon, so be it. I think there's a problem with Arkansas high schools. This survey of college professors seems to agree.

Here's my report on my freshman year at Fayetteville for what it's worth:
Chemistry teacher: Ph.D.
English: Grad. Student
French: Grad. Student
Calculus: Ph.D.
Physics: Ph.D.
Western Civ.: Ph.D.
World Literature: Ph.D.
Quarterback: Joe Ferguson
Basketball Coach: Lanny Van Eman

(Not that I was on a sports team...just remembering the good old days!)

Cato, it's not the kids who make it through med school, dental school, and pharmacy school I'm talking about. It's the ones who don't make it that far because they can't get through freshman biology. Not because they're stupid--because they don't know how to study.

Some kids do get to us with study skills. Many, many do not. We try to help them when we find them, but by then, they often have a lost semester or two that are going to be on their transcripts forever. I have a bright student advisee right now who is kicking himself because he won't be accepted into pharmacy school because his lousy first-year grades are destroying his GPA.

Again, I couldn't care less how much a student knows about biology when he gets to me--I'm going to teach him what he needs to know--as long as he has the study skills to learn it.

This discussion really touches a nerve. I am in the trenches as they say, which, by the way, is a phrase I despise. Anyway, AP classes actually do aid students in college success. Ask an AP student. Furthermore, there's research to back that up--college retention numbers, etc. But here's the dilemma: I personally recruited, begged, cajoled some non AP students into AP classes. They are decidedly not your typical overachieving student but extremely bright. EVERY day I must beg, plead, cajole them into reading with me or alone, attempting to write even the meekest of essay, or stand over them with a bullhorn to even tackle a cut and paste posterboard project, sometimes they'll pay scant attention to a film...like Sargeant York. The typical AP kids are soaring. I employ a wide variety of sources and methods. At what point do the STUDENTS themselves become accountable. I have encouraged. I have helped remove typical barriers. The school has created opportunity. Past students have performed well enough on the exam to be awarded college credit, so there is some affirmation that something is right with my methods and syllabus. WHEN is it the student's fault and not the high school, or the teacher, or society?????

"Again, I couldn't care less
how much a student knows
about biology...
Posted by: Archaeopteryx"

ACH!! In my silly list above I forgot to mention my freshman Biology teacher at UA: Eugene Schmitz, Ph.D.
One of the best teachers (and, short of Tony Blair, the most clear speaker of English) I've ever known, and I made an A.

"WHEN is it the student's fault
and not the high school, or
the teacher, or society?????
Posted by: publicschoolsrus"

It's obviously a...is it legal to have a 4-way street?
> Student must care about his future enough to work hard, study (and be endowed with enough intelligence to do the work).
> High school (school board) must provide proper curriculum and facility.
> Teacher must care and have ability to teach.
> Society must pay the bill and nurture.

I don't think money is the problem. I got an excellent education with a lot less money spent than is now available.

Can't speak about teachers. I'm sure there are good and bad ones, as always.

Part of the problem may be with curriculum and school policy.

Obviously with the students, the cream (like publicschoolsrus) will rise to the top and the rest will talk about sex, music, boys, girls, and their future career behind the counter at McDonald's, and let the Asian students continue to clean their clocks.

I place the burden on the school/school board to insist on a curriculum driven by the basics, and teachers who assign plenty of homework, require plenty of home study, and challenge their students to excel.

The rest is in the hands of the individual student, who must take whatever his own school offers and make the best of it.

One more time--I'm not trying to assign blame, or get anyone to accept responsibility. I'm just saying, the best thing you can do for a student is give them good study skills.

I get students who had AP classes in high school, and some who didn't. I get kids from private schools, public schools, the Math and Science School. The only correlation I've noticed is if a kid has good study skills, they'll excel, and if they don't, they won't.

Spirit,
Now, in which of your 4 categories do parents fit?
Why do we, as a society, not hold parents as accountable as educators for a child learning at whatever level or ability? It takes a village, ya know. Would that offend the taxpayer, the ACLU, the School Board, or heaven forbid the financers of political campaigns? Teachers are an easy target. A few are bad, some are mediocre, and many are outstanding. I have met more outstanding ones than bad ones.
Learning begins at home. By the time a child is in early elementary, the importance of doing homework in a scheduled manner with all the necessary supplies, is established. Elementary teachers teach study skills. Elementary schools have the availability to send home the necessary supplies, food, and clothing. So, what is there left for parents to do? Teach their children that education is valued and treasured in their homes.
For those of you in higher ed who are complaing about the preparation of your Freshman students, how about looking lower than grades 9-12 for a change, a meaningful change, a life changing change for the children.
All help would be appreciated.

Schoolsrus, I'm with you in the trenches and see the same things. In the Little Rock School District parents are in charge and rule number one is not to make a parent angry. Ask Roy Brooks. He sees students and parents as customers. Priority number one for most businesses is to keep the customer happy. This is exactly what the LRSD tries to do every day rather than actually insuring its students are learning. Mom and dad rarely like to hear that their eleventh grade student reads on a fourth grade level. Rarely do they ask what they can do to help the child learn or grow. Instead, they want to know who they have to speak with to get the grade changed. Policies are in place that make it nearly impossible for a teacher to give a student an F. Parents of the biggest problem students are almost impossible to reach, having provided outdated or false phone numbers at registration because they know if the teacher can't prove they made contact, the grade will be changed without fail. As the teacher of an AP class, I'm not allowed to have a student who isn't trying or just isn't making it removed and placed in a regular class. Not even the counselor can do this.The only person with this power is the parent. We have AP classes loaded with students who struggle to spell common words and make complete sentences because parents want them there. Parents are in charge. Parents are happy when their children are making good grades. Dr. Brooks thinks building a school in WLR will bring in parents and students. If he allows thugs to run the halls and parents to run the classrooms as is the case now they'll just have another McClellan out west. WLR parents don't send their kids to PA because PA hands out A's like Halloween candy. They send them because they know they'll leave prepared for college, even if that means they receive a low grade here and there when they earn it which is not the case in most LRSD high school classrooms.
(Before any of the rabid Central Moms jump on me and say this isn't the case and that it's so wonderful at Central; we know it is. Nancy R. gets her way and she runs the school effectively. She also has more power to set policy and isn't micromanaged from above which is the case with other secondary principals quite often. Central has so many scholars and top students because she allows teachers to remove students from AP classes when they don't put forth effort or disrupt the educational environment. Again, not the case in most other secondary schools in the district.Central is a whole other world.)

Archaeopteryx has missed the point....as those higher ed types are wont to do. And spirit missed it too. The school board, the curriculum, support for challenging classes... it's all there. These kids are being offered PRIME opportunities and can even receive college credit FREE of charge for successfully completing the course while still in high school. Tutoring, extra time, one on one advice and help with study skills is being provided...even shoved down their throats. How about the notion of individual motivation in this equation? I've got plenty of success stories of kids with zero parental support. WHEN is anyone going to hold the STUDENTS accountable for what they make of the opportunities presented to them? I get the point about study skills lacking. Anyone looked at NCLB and the EOC tests lately? Copy the question, fill up the box with a quote or 2 from the reading passage and you're proficient. Teachers are being forced to teach nothing but that. No time for study skills with school improvement threats looming. Talk to the politicians and send your local teachers some flowers and chocolates.

There are excellent teachers in public schools and there are sorry ones. There are excellent teachers in college and there are sorry ones. Somehow, the capable students are able to deal with both. But one of the things we need to clear our minds of is this foolish notion everyone MUST graduate from high school and everyone MUST graduate from college.

While it is true one has more options the further one goes up the education ladder it certainly doesn't mean one will be a success with an academic degree. Life is full of people who never finished school who were great successes, financically and otherwise.

But let me be clear: Not all should graduate from high school and not all should graduate from college but the OPPORTUNITY to do such should be there for anyone seeking the chance. Opportunity is a wonderful thing and should never be snuffed out for any reason.

PS: When will higher ed face any measures of accountability similar to NCLB? What happens to them when their students can't fill up a box with copied quotes? Is America's Choice or some other Republican money-making scheme influencing their decision, curricula, or scheduling? Tons of cash flows to higher ed, ya know. Where's the beef? Are their report cards posted on a website somewhere? Who cares really. Let's go back to the point about early childhood and the middle grades. They could use help. Oh, wait. They're mired in NCLB, too.

Well said, Cato. Well said. The GED program was created for a reason. And while most people do have a better life with a full education, I know lots of people who are fulfilled and financially successful, moreso than I, and they did not complete a degree.

Okay publicschoolsrus,

The report says Arkansas high school students aren't ready for college. I give you one piece of advice on how to make them ready. You and calmwriter say, "It's the parents' fault, it's the students' fault, it's higher ed's fault, it's the government's fault, it's the school board's fault, it's the adminstrator's fault. We don't have time to give the students study skills."

I'm just saying....

Archaeopteryx,
It's all elementary, isn't it. If the elem kids don't have the skills, then the Jr. Hi kids have fewer, and then heaven help the HS kids who choose to go to college on promised $$$ based on elevated grades because ___________. Fill in the blank. It's a shame, isn't it?

Sounds like these kids have not been taught a love of learning. Those that have a love of learning will study for hours, just because they like it.

This isn't a turf war, folks. We are talking about kids who aren't able to "cut it" because they don't have the basic skills.
Now, what can we, as a community, do to resolve this problem? I see accusations, and I delivered one myself, but no solutions. Finger pointing and excuses have never solved a problem, and it won't now. It is ALL elementary folks. Now, what can we do to help the foundation of learning so that kids can succeed in college or plumbing or electrian or med tech or whatever school? The only answer the ADE has is testing, more testing, and still more testing. Is it working?

How do you get so many students having a 4.0 average? The answer is very easy. AP courses are graded on a 5.0 scale. So if a student gets a B they still have a 4.0. What is so funny about this is the number of students taking AP courses and the very few who make good enough to receive college credit.

Is it too late to wish for the good old days? I wasn't even trying to get an education, but I got one anyway, beginning in 1950. I went to 13 different schools (Navy career dad), attended an Arkansas college ($50 per semester to start with--almost $200 when I finished) and a private, church-supported graduate school (okay, it was an Episcopal seminary) on scholarship.

I ain't rich (I say "ain't" for fun), but I'm educated--unlike the "professionals" I work with who are good at what they do--but a "professional" who thinks Vienna is in Australia ("I knew it was one of those 'Au-' countries") ain't educated, in my humble opinion.

Culture is defeating education. Be glad you're old, if you are. If you're not, good luck.

I'm not pointing fingers-just trying to explain why we do what we do. And Curious, I agree with your point. The testing doesn't seem to be doing a lick of good. If we could get rid of NCLB and go back to working on instilling the love of learning that drew us to this career in the first place, that might be a start. And still, how do we have assurances that higher ed is doing what it's supposed to do. Aren't they having some retention problems?

Just thank your lucky stars that you're not stuck in Louisiana! My husband and I are products of an Arkansas public education. We both had families who stressed the importance of doing well in school. We also went to schools that had decent standards.
He now has a Ph.D in math and teaches in SE Louisiana. The students are woefully unprepared. Even students who have taken AP classes do not know much - but then again they did not do well on the AP exams. My son is in tenth grade. He went to a private school through eighth grade. It was pathetic! For high school we decided not to pay for a substandard education. He was in "College Prep" geometry last year. They didn't do one single proof. The teacher was not happy about what she was not allowed to teach. If it's not on the state's minimum performance test, it's not in the curriculum.
So, the curriculum is lacking, what about the teachers' qualifications? I know that at UALR (at least when I graduated in 1995) there was a 100% pass rate the first time out taking the NTE. High school teachers majored in the area they wanted to teach and minored in secondary ed. Down here teachers get a "math ed", or "science ed" degree. They don't have a real degreee in what they are teaching. Many teachers take the NTE several times before passing. I know because I worked with them. They would teach at the private schools with a degree but no certficate. When they finally get their certificate they go to the public schools for more money.
Sadly, it seems the schools lie to the students. Students who get A and B grades are told that they are smart and will do well in college. The truth is these kids haven't had to study at all. I saw my kid studying and doing homework for probably only 20 hours combined for his entire 9th grade year. But he thinks he's doing great. His teachers and friends call him smart, he's on the Honor Roll, and in the Beta Club. It really hard for us to convince him that he really doesn't know crap. I'm really worried about him at college.

Just thank your lucky stars that you're not stuck in Louisiana! My husband and I are products of an Arkansas public education. We both had families who stressed the importance of doing well in school. We also went to schools that had decent standards.
He now has a Ph.D in math and teaches in SE Louisiana. The students are woefully unprepared. Even students who have taken AP classes do not know much - but then again they did not do well on the AP exams. My son is in tenth grade. He went to a private school through eighth grade. It was pathetic! For high school we decided not to pay for a substandard education. He was in "College Prep" geometry last year. They didn't do one single proof. The teacher was not happy about what she was not allowed to teach. If it's not on the state's minimum performance test, it's not in the curriculum.
So, the curriculum is lacking, what about the teachers' qualifications? I know that at UALR (at least when I graduated in 1995) there was a 100% pass rate the first time out taking the NTE. High school teachers majored in the area they wanted to teach and minored in secondary ed. Down here teachers get a "math ed", or "science ed" degree. They don't have a real degreee in what they are teaching. Many teachers take the NTE several times before passing. I know because I worked with them. They would teach at the private schools with a degree but no certficate. When they finally get their certificate they go to the public schools for more money.
Sadly, it seems the schools lie to the students. Students who get A and B grades are told that they are smart and will do well in college. The truth is these kids haven't had to study at all. I saw my kid studying and doing homework for probably only 20 hours combined for his entire 9th grade year. But he thinks he's doing great. His teachers and friends call him smart, he's on the Honor Roll, and in the Beta Club. It really hard for us to convince him that he really doesn't know crap. I'm really worried about him at college.

My last observation on this string. I have a close friend who is on the adjunct faculty at the UofA in Fayetteville. He teaches two science classes that have 350 students in each one. He has another science class that has 70 in it. That's 770 students in three classes. One can surely understand the problems with this academic situation. And yet we have these folks from higher ed putting out an evalutation of high school preparations for college work.

Give me a break.

Proofs are no longer taught in geometry here because they are not on the EOC. Letter writing and addressing envelopes are also left out in the lower grades for the same reason. The general public is slowly realizing just how many vital elements are pushed out of the way for EOCs. Blame NCLB not your schools and teachers--they are trying in spite of what's being imposed on kids by NCLB.

Cato, not all colleges are like Fayetteville. But many are. Most large universities have freshman classes that are enormous. To survive there, students have to be prepared with adequate study skills. I teach at a smaller school, where my freshman classes generally start out with less than fifty students--sometimes much less. I lecture them on study habits, but just like Jaggle says, most of them came out of high school with high GPAs, and think they know how to study. They don't. College is different. You really do have to have some sort of study skills and work ethic to make it through. For whatever reason, kids aren't getting this in high school. Not in public school, nor private school, nor home-schooled.

You're blaming the higher ed folks? What would you have us do? Smaller class size? That means higher tuition. Do you want us to dumb down the courses? I don't think that's what you want at all. You tell me what we can be doing different in college.

Smaller classes are always a plus. But if you can't swing that, how about something supportive and helpful in the form an official statement of some sort disputing the college profs "survey." How about something like the vast majority of our public schools are doing an outstanding job considering they must educate everyone? Heck, they're doing an outstanding job providing tremendous opportunities to all our children. Parents, please get behind these efforts and insist your child work hard in school.

The court finally caught up with some our truant kids and they graced the door for the first time this year with 3 weeks left in the semester. And then there's the student who naps a great deal because he lives in a one bedroom apartment with his mom and mom's boyfriend who got in a major altercation last night....and last week and...well he does go to grandma's house sometimes when mom hits the road because the arrest warrants are coming. He didn't have a coat. We got that problem solved but there's not much we can do about the warrant. Maybe we'll get to some of those study skills and essay writing next week. Mr. Argue should meet some of the students who are really working hard just to stay alive and get to school everyday before he insists on college prep for all. A job will really be the first order of business and maybe a 2 year college in a few years but right now, survival is the priority.

"how about something supportive and helpful in the form an official statement of some sort disputing the college profs "survey." How about something like the vast majority of our public schools are doing an outstanding job considering they must educate everyone? Heck, they're doing an outstanding job providing tremendous opportunities to all our children."

How is it supportive and helpful to ignore the problem--which is that a huge chunk of our graduates are not ready for college? How is it useful to mouth platitudes which are not true? If the problem is NCLB, then it needs to be fixed--not ignored.

Then help fix it! I'm not suggesting we ignore anything. It's taken 8 years and people still don't understand how horrible NCLB is. They accuse teachers of just being lazy and unwilling to "measure up." That is not the case at all. If we were unwilling to measure up, why do have kids take AP exams? The problem is that so few people realize what the problem is. Maybe higher ed could back up the k12s and help dismantle NCLB???? The other part of the problem is that so few of our students are ready for school period. That's a family, social, state, church, human problem. Good luck with making some inroads into the whole repeating cycle of poverty.

Then help fix it! I'm not suggesting we ignore anything. It's taken 8 years and people still don't understand how horrible NCLB is. They accuse teachers of just being lazy and unwilling to "measure up." That is not the case at all. If we were unwilling to measure up, why do have kids take AP exams? The problem is that so few people realize what the problem is. Maybe higher ed could back up the k12s and help dismantle NCLB???? The other part of the problem is that so few of our students are ready for school period. That's a family, social, state, church, human problem. Good luck with making some inroads into the whole repeating cycle of poverty.

Then help fix it! I'm not suggesting we ignore anything. It's taken 8 years and people still don't understand how horrible NCLB is. They accuse teachers of just being lazy and unwilling to "measure up." That is not the case at all. If we were unwilling to measure up, why do have kids take AP exams? The problem is that so few people realize what the problem is. Maybe higher ed could back up the k12s and help dismantle NCLB???? The other part of the problem is that so few of our students are ready for school period. That's a family, social, state, church, human problem. Good luck with making some inroads into the whole repeating cycle of poverty.

Then help fix it! I'm not suggesting we ignore anything. It's taken 8 years and people still don't understand how horrible NCLB is. They accuse teachers of just being lazy and unwilling to "measure up." That is not the case at all. If we were unwilling to measure up, why do have kids take AP exams? The problem is that so few people realize what the problem is. Maybe higher ed could back up the k12s and help dismantle NCLB???? The other part of the problem is that so few of our students are ready for school period. That's a family, social, state, church, human problem. Good luck with making some inroads into the whole repeating cycle of poverty.

Then help fix it! I'm not suggesting we ignore anything. It's taken 8 years and people still don't understand how horrible NCLB is. They accuse teachers of just being lazy and unwilling to "measure up." That is not the case at all. If we were unwilling to measure up, why do have kids take AP exams? The problem is that so few people realize what the problem is. Maybe higher ed could back up the k12s and help dismantle NCLB???? The other part of the problem is that so few of our students are ready for school period. That's a family, social, state, church, human problem. Good luck with making some inroads into the whole repeating cycle of poverty.

Then help fix it! I'm not suggesting we ignore anything. It's taken 8 years and people still don't understand how horrible NCLB is. They accuse teachers of just being lazy and unwilling to "measure up." That is not the case at all. If we were unwilling to measure up, why do have kids take AP exams? The problem is that so few people realize what the problem is. Maybe higher ed could back up the k12s and help dismantle NCLB???? The other part of the problem is that so few of our students are ready for school period. That's a family, social, state, church, human problem. Good luck with making some inroads into the whole repeating cycle of poverty.

Then help fix it! I'm not suggesting we ignore anything. It's taken 8 years and people still don't understand how horrible NCLB is. They accuse teachers of just being lazy and unwilling to "measure up." That is not the case at all. If we were unwilling to measure up, why do have kids take AP exams? The problem is that so few people realize what the problem is. Maybe higher ed could back up the k12s and help dismantle NCLB???? The other part of the problem is that so few of our students are ready for school period. That's a family, social, state, church, human problem. Good luck with making some inroads into the whole repeating cycle of poverty.

sorry about the multiple posts. get error messages from host