Arkansas Blog

Why not. Just because Conant or Mann didn't advocate doesn't mean it's not plausible.

First, we test our students far too much in America; give the teachers an opportunity to teach the material, then measure the progress of the students.
Second, a standardized assessment will reveal very little about the student's future success in school or in life.
Third, testing is a billioin dollar business, and the students are nothing more than chattel.
Fourth, doing well in school should be each student's responsibility; a student should not be compensated monetarily for performing exceptionally well in school.
Fifth, students should be taught the value of an education, instead of promoting the culture of mediocrity that is so prevasive in public education.
In sum, do not give them a penny for doing well on a test. Our mission should be to educate all students-----and the test results will reflect the efforts invested. Bubbling ovals on a scan sheet should not be the primary focus of education. The 'new' gimmick are practiced only in public ed. It makes one go ummmmmmmmm.....

Honestone:

First, what do you mean by, "measure the progress", and how often should this be done?

Second, do you have any data on this?

Third, well ok, if it is business it must be evil.

Fourth, "Why not?" Parents have been giving monetary rewards for good report cards for a long time.

Fifth, I agree. But, what does this have to do with giving them monetary rewards for rising above mediocrity?

In sum, why? Ummm, yes. That's right. What???

Many schools already have some type of incentive tied to test performance- pizza parties, passes to athletic events, teachers and school administrators kissing animals or eating some predetermined substance...

would you rather have some $$$ or see your principal eat a worm?

That reward system has worked for a long time. Lots of parents pay their kids for "A"s and it works on most kids, as long as they aren't spoiled to the point that the money means nothing to them.

I'm not sure it should be a function of public schools though.

Aporkalypse,

What about those parents who can't afford the extra incentive?

It's uncomfortable turning into a dinosaur. I've not been enjoying it. I'm constantly fighting myself...holding back when I want to scream..it wasn't that way when I was in school!

Then I ask myself what was so great about my educational experience? Fort Smith schools had/have a good reputation. I figure I got as good an education as public schools can put out. I don't feel cheated. I could have done better. It wasn't any teacher's fault.

Anyway....I have brilliant children because they have a brilliant Mama. My youngest one just finished her 9th grade year. The last week of school was spent going to pick her up because she had too many rewards and presents to walk home with.

It was amazing...all I remember is the last day she got a home stereo system and an MP3 player. There were at least 3 award ceremonies and she wore a path on the stage going up to accept Best ______ over and over.

Yes I am bragging a little bit. I'm not sure I am 100% for such a thing. What did the bottom 10% feel like during the last week of school when the top 10% were being treated like royalty? If you tell a child he's stupid often enough...he or she will fulfill the prophecy.

My daughter went to the "bad" junior high. Not only is she brainy like Mom, we have given her every step-up a child can have. We have devoted all of our attention to both girls since they were born.

One parent or the other has been home with them for the last 20 years. Most kids aren't lucky enough to have all these advantages. Our children are the exception, not the norm.

Some of her classmates in the upper 10% didn't come from a home like ours, yet still made their own way to the top and good for them! They actually deserve double the presents and rewards for all that swimming upstream.

These kids have been tested nearly to death. It is evident that the national tests are super important to local schools. Our junior high would call a day or 2 before a test and make sure my kid was going to be in class that day. They were desperate to get every kid that might push their average up. I'm not against it....but it seems rather sad.

Our junior high is the "bad" one because it's in the old part of Fort Baptist. More importantly, it catches all the immigrant children, some without good English skills. These Mexican kids are as bright as hell, but of course they don't test well in the beginning. That is the downside to all this testing. None of the schools in my neighborhood test well. To an outsider, they should be closed for not doing their job well.

Having experienced the whole ball of wax, I know better. My kids had teachers trying their guts out.....I had very few like that growing up. These teachers are rewarded with an ugly graft in the newspaper a couple of times a year, showing that they're a bunch of lazy losers.

The TV stations (the ones that haven't moved to NWA) talk about these poor schools with poor tests results in their usual dramatic tone usually reserved for a child molestation report.

It's degrading and unfair. On the surface my kid's schools look like failures based only on the testing results. If anyone did more than a People magazine study of them, the tune would change and these harder working teachers would get their due recognition, not as lazy losers, but as the heroes they are.

The problem with the '00s is that no one has the time or energy or brains to scratch below the surface. The media mines from what's laying on top the ground. Too much testing is taking away from hours of instruction. And everyone is looking for an injured chicken to peck to death.

How would the Bush White House do if we gave them a test every month? How well would the news media do if tested? How would the overgrown school administration, the ones sucking up the big bucks, do if we tested them till they glowed? Could the Arkansas legislature pass the tests my daughter has been taking over and over and over?

I think we all know the answer in advance.

I think this is a good idea. WIth all the prattling to "place blame" for our declining education results, the ONE place no one (except me) places blame is upon the STUDENTS. Many of the puniest schools (most of which no longer exist) produced the most accomplished adults - college-path or not.

DBI's 'dinosaur' comment reminded me of this: I recently made the 'misteak' of volunteering at our local (rural) school, "tutoring" 7th graders who were "at risk" (of bringing standardized test scores down) based on their previous testing.

While the materials I had to use were scurrilous (TOTALLY "teaching to the test" - suspicion confirmed), what amazed me even more was the attitudes of the students (8 of them), only one of whom displayed ANY care/concern for what was going on. I know, they're "only" 7th graders - nevertheless I was completely taken aback by their (virtually non-existent) writing/spelling skills and their lack of creativity and "caring."

THIS while responding to my BRIEF "get to know you" questionnaire which initially served as an ice-breaker in discussing who I was and why we were there.

As a parent of 4 adult 'children' of some accomplishment, I was appalled. Parents REALLY need to get their kids out of the TV/electronic gaming/McDonalds tri-fecta or we're going to be "losing" several generations to mediocrity - or worse. MAYBE paying them will work, as lots of other stuff obviously isn't!

In 1989 the LRSD and the State of AR. signed a contract with the Joshua and Knight intervenors requiring the LRSD bring the average standardized test scores of the LRSD's black students up to 90% of the average white student's. Mr. Rutherford, Gov. Clinton, Mr. Walker and the labor union agreed on this way to measure progress. The State would "lend" and forgive the LRSD millions if this goal was accomplished by the year 2000. First, the LRSD gave the teachers a $3 million a year increase without any merit incentive or requirement and subsequent raises were not tied to standardized test score performance. Was there any movement in average test scores over the 90's? The average test scores declined.

Case studies are instructive and we need look no further than the LRSD. Stardardized test scores are a good indicator of student performance, not inflated grades or social promotion.

Though their website is always days behind, the Times Record newspaper's large headline in today's paper heaps more shame on local schools because once again we're at the bottom of the pile.

Could it be our school teachers have been administered to death? Has teaching to the test ruined them? Actually, I don't think many of them are ruined. I think maybe the paperwork from on high is choking them. I think maybe enforced standardized creativity has tied their hands.

And another thing I've noticed, kids are expelled from school over anything and everything. Many are arrested, handcuffed and led away over minor infractions.

The NY Times had an article about the alarming number of arrests of students at school. My tall, old, skinny, 4th grade spinster teacher never needed a cop....she was the original iron maiden.

There is a sickness....how do we fix it? Call it some kind of wacky faith based, but not on God feeling I have....but I don't feel it's the teacher's fault.

I was paid for grades and it
didn't hurt my value for education
one bit. It only showed me how
much my parents valued education.

The suggestion that rewarding
or paying for grades would
undermine the value of
education is about the most
silly thing I've heard of on here
and that's saying a lot!
Apparently your parents didn't
pay you for your grades. Get
over it.

Think about those students
whose parents can't afford to
reward them for good grades.
You are placing them at a
disadvantage by not having
such a universal plan.

Not only do we need to pay
students for performance, we
need to change the way we teach.

In the age of computers, we
need to be teaching students
how to think, problem solve, learn on their own, and create.
Stop trying to turn students'
brains into data storage. We
have computers for that.

If that had been around when I was in school, I would have made a killing. As it was, it was just expected and all I got was a "well good" for my As.

But, what about those that just CAN'T make better grades, because of problems like dyslexia?

But, it may work for those that have some intelligence and no learning disabilities. Hard to say. I am reserving judgment and will wait to see if it works if they implement it.

NO

What's the cut off A- or B plus? What about hard working B and C students? What about the rare D or F a good student gets even though they tried or because life just got a little crazy in or out of school? They get nothing?

The caste/preppy system in american schools is bad enough via peer pressures and this will only cause so called avg students to be scorned or certainly tell them they are failures for earning C's and B's.

There is a huge difference between rewards from family and rewards in cash from the school itself..

Prizes or scholarships are wonderful ideas..but not direct cash, imo.

Eureka Springs, you have yet
to make a reasonable or
intelligent argument against
paying students for their
grades. You are only making
emotional statements that
seem to indicate you have a
lot of resentment from your
school age years.

This issue should be dealt with
logically and based on facts,
not emotions and blind ideology.
Iraq is a prime example of
what happens when people
don't.

"What's the cut off A- or B plus? What about hard working B and C students? What about the rare D or F a good student gets even though they tried or because life just got a little crazy in or out of school? They get nothing?"

Perhaps you have heard of
the grading scale? Works the
same way....not rocket science.
At least not for most of us.

Several questions need to be resolved on this issue before jumping on the bandwagon for such a program or condemning it out of hand.

1) How do you weight the grades & courses? Is an A in math equivalent to an A in Art, etc?

2) What happens to the students efforts when they no longer belong to such a program?

3) Who will administer the payment program and where will the money come for such?

4) What, if any, lawsuits might occur because of the implementation of such a plan? If you think discrimination lawsuits are bad now and grades are under scrutiny under current conditions, just imagine what they'll be like with this in place!

5) Is the amount sufficient to provide an incentive to the students?

6) Will the issue of social promotion or academic promotion be affected by such a plan?

7) Will advanced classes have a different scale?

8) Will special education students and special needs students work under a different scale?

9) Will grades become more important than learning?

10) Will teachers be judged by how easy it is to get an A in their class or how well they teach?

Like the Fair Tax, this plan looks and sounds great on the surface. However, a realistic look at the application of such a program and the problems it will cause gives this retired teacher much to worry about. If this plan has one obvious and glaring flaw it is this: it is not a plan to improve education and teaching; it is just another plan about money.

You are opening Pandora's box with this approach based on my experience with the art and science of teaching. You are especially going to have trouble legally with the application of any such plan.

People need to ask these questions and more about this plan. And you need to get many, many answers before letting such an idea loose. It has much you should worry about.

Doc--
In order to assess the progress made by each student, the same evaluative tool has to be administered at the beginning of the year and at the end; otherwise, the test is invalid and useless. Most students will not expend the energy to do well when they have been assaulted with too many tests. Parents have a right to utilize any incentive they choose to inspire and encourage their child(ren). It is not the school's job to pay money to students for doing well; however, schools should provide other rewards for the high achieving students, and most, if not all, do. Public schools can and will work when there is a leader with a vision; when teachers who are employed are highly qualified; when parents and students who are held accountable for their choices; when discipline is enforced, without exception; When excuses are renounced and rejected; when expectations are hgh. And, no school should give any student money for doing well on any test. Schools should not underwrite the actions of unmotivated students and parents who have chosen to abdicate their responsibility. The students will get paid---when they get a job.

Hmmm,
Let's see.
Schools have taken over the parenting for the most part with a mandate to get the community involved. If parents are willing to give up their rights for feeding, clothing, educating their children, then paying the parents (who is going to get the $$$ except for the lazy a$$ parents?) Who is going to cash the check? The kid? I think not. When will the majority of parents in Public Schools in LRSD realize it is about the children? Why should school districts bear the burden of feeding and clothing, when parents aren't willing? I have had Moms driving up to school dressed in the finest couture in a large BMW and Mercedes. Their kids were on free lunch. Also had one Mom who filled out the Pupil Information Form and listed her occupation as prostitute. She and her child were dressed in the most current styles from the "upscale" stores. How do I know? I asked. Pay kids? NO WAY!!!!!! Investigate Welfare Fraud, yup. Needs to be done!!!

Hmmm,
Let's see.
Schools have taken over the parenting for the most part with a mandate to get the community involved. If parents are willing to give up their rights for feeding, clothing, educating their children, then paying the parents (who is going to get the $$$ except for the lazy a$$ parents?) Who is going to cash the check? The kid? I think not. When will the majority of parents in Public Schools in LRSD realize it is about the children? Why should school districts bear the burden of feeding and clothing, when parents aren't willing? I have had Moms driving up to school dressed in the finest couture in a large BMW and Mercedes. Their kids were on free lunch. Also had one Mom who filled out the Pupil Information Form and listed her occupation as prostitute. She and her child were dressed in the most current styles from the "upscale" stores. How do I know? I asked. Pay kids? NO WAY!!!!!! Investigate Welfare Fraud, yup. Needs to be done!!!

Curious--
Your insight is always appreciated. Many who choose to members of the secular progressive club will always fabricate excuses for those who choose to abuse the system. I remember when liberal had a positive meaning; however, the contemporary definition is almost obscene. And, again, schools should never pay students for performing at a proficient level on any test. If the parents want to, more power to them.

bold and the blue said,

Eureka Springs, you have yet
to make a reasonable or
intelligent argument against
paying students for their
grades. You are only making
emotional statements that
seem to indicate you have a
lot of resentment from your
school age years.

This issue should be dealt with
logically and based on facts,
not emotions and blind ideology.
Iraq is a prime example of
what happens when people
don't.
<<<<<<<

I don't have kids but pay plenty of taxes and wish the best for all children and teachers. To just sit back and watch God and Cash take over public schools does ruffle my feathers a bit and I do have old issues (both good and bad) with my wide and varied school days in 16 schools and several states by the 10th grade. So yes, my opinion is based on personal experience not data.

Try adding a competition to cash rewards with what I experienced in my years of all A's and damn near total failure on occasion.. just sounds wrong to me from every perspective both "bad" schools and "excellent" schools.

Learn from my resentment and consider what I suspect will exacerbate it for many others in the future.

I think it will be good for the top competitors and leave the rest with a sense of failure no matter how much they try or learn.

Admittedly I am not up to date scouring educational studies or the reasoning behind this proposal. Sorry if it sounded at all like I did. But it sounds unnecessary at best.

Sounds like turning the educational experience into something like an auto salesperson competition.