Arkansas Blog

As much as I hate to say this, if it is the Bushco administration's tacit decision not to allow those areas below sea level to be rebuilt with massive government help, I agree with the decision. Why should we spend untold millions, or rather billions, when needed projects are completed, to place future New Orleanians in jeopardy? And jeopardy is exactly where we would place them, I fear. Do we want to hear of 1200 or more people dying when the next category five delivers a broadside?
Nearly two years has passed. It's time for Katrina's and Rita's refugees to accept that the forces of nature dictate rebuilding their lives in a safer place. Any money the government spends should be used to facilitate that.
George Bush should have the guts to say that. If he can continue to support a misbegotten war . . .
Nah, nevermind. Misbegotten analogy.

By that reasoning,

Let's abandon San Francisco, it's on an earthquake fault. Oklahoma City, Tulsa, Kansas City, even Little Rock, are all in tornado alley and, eventually, a big twister will come throught. And let's write off Memphis because of the New Madrid fault.

Next, we should abandon all the cities on the east coast because they could be underwater pretty soon because of global warming.

What rubbish.

I agree, Doigotta. I would never depend on levees and pumps right there in hurricane land. They should only build on land that's properly built up to be above sea level, or build on stilts like beach front homes. I'd be happy to see public money spent to help with that. But I'm not for rebuilding below sea level and depending on levees and pumps. That's crazy.

I predict, however, that New Orleans won't be hit again like that for a long time, that people's memories will fade, and that eventually they'll rebuild on the land below sea level, only to get zapped again in 30 to 40 years. Humans are good at not learning from their mistakes.

Regarding Polecat's post above, we're not talking about abandoning places that have no current problems. We're talking about, when disaster eventually hits, not spending tax money to rebuild them with the same shortcomings they had before. Sure, go help them survive the disaster. But when rebuild time comes, don't keep making the same mistakes over and over.

I'm not saying to abandon New Orleans, just to not rebuild it below sea level. Likewise, if San Francisco has a devastating earthquake, I wouldn't be for spending a lot of federal money to rebuild it on that fault. If citizens want to foolishly build on a fault with their own money, knowing the danger they're accepting, I say let 'em have at it. But I wouldn't be for spending a lot of tax money to help them make the same mistakes over and over.

We have the technology available to rebuild/ restore and the understanding of what went wrong with levy failure as well as erosion of wetlands which allowed Katrina to wreak such havoc.

Everything about Bush and republicans in congress in response to Katrina has been devilishly intentionally disasterous. Everything about Mark Pryors best buddies Mary Landreiu and Joe Lieberman (All three are former gang of fourteen members and now all three are Dept of Homeland security committe members of which Leiberman is chairman).. Leiberman will not conduct any oversight hearings on Katrina reconstruction efforts, none! And Pryor and Landrieu are saying nothing against Lieberman while hundreds of billions are spent without any scrutiny and countless thousands of peoples lives remain in shambles... Landrieu is now polling behind her challanger in the 08 LA senate race.. And Gov Blanco will lose to a republican as well.

Republicans (with a few Democrats two-faced support) intentionally failed N.O. while draining enormous amounts of treasure for contracts.. Now they will be rewarded for it by turning Louisiana into a Republican state on the political map.
All one need to do is compare the treatment MS and AL, Republican states received from Bushco in comparrison to LA and remember Dumas AR after their tornado..

And the entire country loses its money, self respect, and precious city of New Orleans.. needlessly.

Unless the Democratic party nationally and in AR stands up and calls out Pryor for what he is (and Landrieu and Lieberman) all of whom are supported by Clinton and Obama.... the fix will remain in place.

We have a Senator who is inhumane in his ways.. anti democratic in his results.. he needs to be scorned a sent to sweep the streets of Calcutta on bended knee with a hand broom for a few years.

N.O. area ports, wealthy residents and ninth ward area all need sound levy protection... indeed the MS river needs it for safe continued river traffic.

This problem doesn't just go away if you wait out the poor citizens of the ninth ward by running them off so expensive condos etc. can eventually be built in their place...which appears to be the plan.

Spirit, One quick question for you... When Loma Prieta shifts your house 15 to 30 feet off its foundation, you just want your government to give you two grand on an ATM card, a bus ticket to Houston Astro Dome and a couple of bottles of water, that's all, right?

I don't think the cost of rebuilding would be beneficial to anyone! They are spending lots of money to repain those levies right now.. There are many many people who left New Orleans that say they'll never go back because losing everything one time is more they care to bear.

"U. S. Sen. Mark Pryor, D-Ark., will host a Senate Commerce Committee field hearing to discuss the state of broadband in Arkansas and determine possible congressional action that might foster greater deployment around the state, he said in a recent news release.

The U. S. Senate Commerce Committee field hearing, " The State of Broadband in Arkansas, " will be from 10 a. m. to 1: 15 p. m. Tuesday at the Main Library, 100 Rock St. in Little Rock. "

While our government is being stolen, a criminal war kills our kids for oil, and New Orleans dies because of a government that hasn't cared about it in 50 years, the above is what is consuming Mark Pryor's time. If I could get a hold of broadband, I'd kiss it! I love it so much! But in light of everything going wrong in America and by the guilty hand of America, I think Mr. Pryor should push the little stuff off to the side and tackle the things that are killing us.

I must admit our government knew the levies in New Orleans were for shit back when Bush was face down in his own vomit in college. This doesn't excuse the Bush administration's criminal neglect after Katrina came roaring thru, but they did nothing about the levies just like Clinton, Bush 1, Reagan, Carter, Ford and Nixon did nothing. 60 Minutes had a piece years ago predicting exactly what happened in New Orleans after Katrina....our government knew and did nothing.

I personally hate New Orleans, but Allah gave us legs in order we shouldn't have to live where we don't want to, so I don't live in New Orleans and wouldn't take a free gift of half the town. However, Ma raised me to be a compassionate sort, real compassion, not Republican compassion, therefore I want the full resources of the Federal government to come to the rescue of the Gulf. Engineers without agenda must figure out the places too dangerous for humans to live and leave them to nature. The rest should be saved and returned to the owners.

I didn't have to read this article to know that Bush and the neo-cons hate blacks and the poor. I saw it on my TV right after Katrina. If I live to be 100 I'll never forget one of the Katrina survivors telling me with her own lips of laying on a roof for nearly a week without food or water. Of the community that was formed on the roofs around her. And how when the parents decided to kill their own children to provide a merciful quick death rather than slow torture, the single man roof top swam over en mass to protect the children. The same black men who had kept all of them alive by swimming off in the muck, floating dead bodies and gators to find bottled water floating in other areas of the city. Could there be a worse horror story? And now the rumor floating around is that Michael Chertoff, the former head of FEMA will be taking over for Alberto Gonzales. Attorney General Skeletor!

We should have pulled these criminals out of the White House 2 years ago and abandoned them on a rooftop surrounded by hungry gators. Instead.....they're still in power, working their evil on the world. We're to blame because we've let them get away with murder. We've let Mark Pryor off the hook for every responsibility he's shucked. If we want to change the world, we have to start here at home. No more excuses! Throw half of them in prison and the rest out of office.

So New Orleans and the Gulf are to be America's Chernobyl - yes, a man-made disaster in that we knew the risk and let it persist, passing the buck and the expenditures for safe levees on down the line. When zero hour finally came we were unprepared, people perished, rescues were inadequate to nonexistant. The aftermath is unabated, toxic social waste and a great geographic swatch of the US left nearly uninhabitable. As in Chernobyl, the few who remain or return do so in great danger that is left unaddressed. The government of the US thinks this is a country so vast that we can just write off a chunk of it along with the people in it. I guess we're a country square with Max's succinct analysis - Bush to New Orleans: Die.

Count me OUT of the smirking Republicans and "Libertarians" who smugly look at others in suffering and say "you made poor choices. You had bad luck Live (die) with it." They would let those with the most money to exploit the situation use the opportunity to turn the great port of the Mississippi into nothing but an oil-and-goods transfer station with a little amusement park in the Quarter and a roaring casino row, with just enough housing for the workers who support that.

When I pay income and state income taxes, plus property taxes, I do so to fund the protection of the greater good. In this case the people of the Gulf have been not just ripped off but raped. After years of delay some are now getting the money to rebuild on their property, but no community or city government serves them. People have been driving from Baton Rouge or further to clear their lots or mow their yards in a ghost town precisely in order to not have whole neighborhoods condemned.

Everything about the Gulf remains the shame of a nation, except for the valor of those who survived, the courage of those who saved others and the compassion of the many who went to help. That is America. That is humanity.

That link is to the Washington Post, not the Times.

ARK. BLOG: Thanks. They all look the same to me.

why don't we go over to holland and kidnap the werner von braun of levees. he seems to know what he is doing better than anybody ever did. then we put him in a room and waterboard him until he reveals his secrets. oooorrr we could ask him real nice with a pile of money and a consultant fee, even if he doesn't work for halliburton, how to fix the problem and everybody live happily ever after. if a flood comes have a dutch boy stick a finger in a you know who if the christians haven't run all of them out of town.

Even if we took the Iraq notch off dubya's bedpost, Katrina would still be enough for me to want him behind bars. Unconscionable. I happen to love New Orleans and am sick that it continues to be neglected.

This is the U.S., right? If the dutch can figure out levees we should be able to, too.

(DBI, is it true that there are rumblings of Michael Jerkoff replacing Abu Gonzo? Saints preserve us.)

"Count me OUT of the smirking
Republicans and "Libertarians"
who smugly look at others in
suffering and say "you made
poor choices.
Posted by: mag"

Count me OUT of support for anybody who would build below sea level in hurricane country.

Count me OUT DOUBLE on RE-building below sea level. That's nuts, and I won't stop saying that it's nuts.

What's that saying about doing things over and over the same way and expecting a different outcome?

"Spirit, One quick question for you...
Posted by: Eureka Springs, AR"

Come on, Eureka. You know good and well I'm not accepting the Bush response you described above as appropriate disaster response. I'm all for appropriate disaster response. I'm all for building all those folks a new home so they can approach the life they used to have. I'm just against building it below sea level on the Gulf Coast. I don't think I'm being unreasonable, but I think some of you are.

"This is the U.S., right?
If the dutch can figure
out levees we should be
able to, too.
Posted by: hugh mann"

a) As we all know, being the U.S. doesn't assure we'll always be the best at everything.

b) Do they have Category 4 and 5 hurricanes in the North Sea?

there are rumors all over other sites about chertoff replacing gonzo. it could be a really exciting hearing. i would imagine the period is close enough that he could do a recess hearing and say screw you but that might be too brazen even for them but then again nothing is too brazen for him.

ARK. BLOG: Chertoff? The hero of New Orleans? Al D'Amato's Whitewater hatchet man? Heckuva job.

Spirit, the technology the Dutch use is widely available. All it takes is money and will, something our "government" doesn't seem to believe in unless you are talking about Iraq.
And even though Katrina was a category 5 hurricane, the levees in New Orleans failed under what was maybe Category 1 conditions.
I can't understand why there still seems to be a consensus that those people are a charity case and shouldn't have made their lives down there in the first place. On the most base level, you would think folks would understand it is in THEIR INTEREST to follow what is going on down there. Brother, every one of those people is YOU and ME. Next time something on that scale happens in your neighborhood, kiss your ass goodbye. And if you survive, plan on getting gang-raped by your good old American insurance company.

Spirit, Thanks for clarifying.. Accepting your premise for a moment then I think Bushco should have said that was or is now it's intention.. and help many former homeowners with mortgage .. get paid by their insurance companies and refinance their debt and or help them get into another mortgage in their new home, where ever that is...

But they didn't, they won't, and they will financially help big developers rebuild below sea level... just you watch.

Just like they are using our tax money to bail out troubled mortgage companies for awful lending practices..but not at all helping people refinance in a way that keeps them in their homes or keeps them from going bankrupt.

I think most people have no idea what an artificial environment so many of us live in. Think about cities like Phoenix, and how they get their water, and how that could be disrupted via natural disaster.

The reason New Orleans was devastated wasn't because it was below sea level. It was because the levee system was not built to specification, and it failed. That's the fault of the federal government, and it's right that we as a nation make it right.

"All it takes is money and
will, something our "government"
doesn't seem to believe in...
Posted by: Mrs. Basil E. Frankweiler"

You got that right! If you consider, as a percent of GNP, what the Dutch have spent, I'd say no way USA would ever reproduce that. Of course, the Dutch don't feel the need to outspend the rest of the world, combined, on defense.

"...the levees in New Orleans
failed under what was maybe
Category 1 conditions."

Which certainly reinforces my feeling that we can never make the below-sea-level areas safe from the Category 4 and 5 hurricanes global warming is sure to bring them. The Dutch couldn't do it either. If you can guarantee me there will never be a Category 5 hurricane striking New Orleans, I'll agree to let people build below sea level there again.

"...there still seems to be a consensus
that those people are a charity case
and shouldn't have made their lives down
there in the first place."

Regardless of income, building your life below sea level along the Gulf Coast is a mistake and should not be allowed. Surely it's a slap in the face of the poor to allow them to build in such dangerous locations, just because the land is cheap due to its lack of elevation. We don't allow people to build and "make a life" in places that have been poisoned by radiation or toxic chemicals. Refresh your memory on Love Canal. We shouldn't let them build below sea level in New Orleans, either.

"The reason New Orleans was
devastated wasn't because it
was below sea level.
Posted by: John A Arkansawyer"

I just disagree. In spite of government incompetence, if all of New Orleans had been above sea level they would have made a strong comeback by now, levees or no levees, outside help or no outside help.

I think it's foolish, and a display of bravado, to think that we, the great Americans, are not subject to the power of nature, that we can do anything we want and natural law doesn't apply to us.

As the glaciers of Greenland and Antarctica melt this will all become academic anyway. New Orleans will be uninhabitable unless you plan to supply the citizenry with submarines or gills.

"The reason New Orleans was
devastated wasn't because it
was below sea level.
Posted by: John A Arkansawyer"

I just disagree. In spite of government incompetence, if all of New Orleans had been above sea level they would have made a strong comeback by now, levees or no levees, outside help or no outside help.

I think it's foolish, and a display of bravado, to think that we, the great Americans, are not subject to the power of nature, that we can do anything we want and natural law doesn't apply to us.

As the glaciers of Greenland and Antarctica melt this will all become academic anyway. New Orleans will be uninhabitable unless you plan to supply the citizenry with submarines or gills.

Posted by: Spirit

Name any other major world city built on water (and New Orleans is that) that might have suffered a major flood. Can you imagine that the response and reconstruction would have been this bad in Amsterdam, Rotterdam, Stockholm, Venice? This is a colossal American embarassment.

"Can you imagine that the response
and reconstruction would have been
this bad in Amsterdam, Rotterdam,
Stockholm, Venice? This is a colossal
American embarassment.
Posted by: Polecat"

Agreed completely. Now tell me which of those areas is in a Category 5 hurricane zone and below sea level.

Repeating, I'm all for rebuilding. Just not in the areas below sea level.

Spirit, when you say:

"In spite of government incompetence, if all of New Orleans had been above sea level they would have made a strong comeback by now, levees or no levees, outside help or no outside help."

you're missing the fact that, had the levees been built to specification, there wouldn't've been catastrophic flooding.

Remember the sequence of events? New Orleans weathered the storm itself. Many hours later, the 17th Street levee failed, because it wasn't built to plan. Had it been built to specification, it would have held.

This is what ticks me off so thoroughly about this disaster--it was preventable. In fact, there was a plan to prevent it, and had the plan been carried out conscientiously by the federal government, it wouldn't have happened.

As Eureka pointed out, watch and see if expensive condos don't see development in that area.

""...you're missing the fact that,
had the levees been built to
specification, there wouldn't've
been catastrophic flooding.
Posted by: John A Arkansawyer"

Why do you say I'm missing that fact? As discussed above, when Katrina hit New Orleans, it was a Category 1 hurricane and, if the levees had been properly built and maintained none of this would have happened. I'm in complete agreement on that. What I've spent the day trying to get even one person to agree on is that we should not rebuild on ground below sea level.

How long can we count on New Orleans hurricanes being only Category 1? I wouldn't have advocated moving all those people out of their homes before Katrina, but now that the houses are gone, I just think it's foolish to risk all those folks' lives again by having them live below sea level, knowing that the weather is changing, the seas are rising, the storms are getting stronger and more frequent.

I'm astonished that nobody except me, and the now missing Doigotta, are warning here against re-building below sea level, and that everybody else here says, sure, go ahead and build there again. We'll protect you next time.

"This is what ticks me off so
thoroughly about this disaster
--it was preventable."

Yes, it was, that time. I'm looking at the future. Now that the houses are gone why on earth would anybody let people build new houses there, below sea level, so we can go through this again. I may be dumb, but I'm not stupid.

"As Eureka pointed out, watch
and see if expensive condos
don't see development in that area.
Posted by: hugh mann"

Indeed, but I'm not concerned about people who can afford condos. If some idiot would pay that much to buy a condo below sea level, let 'em go for it and I hope they enjoy their in-ocean property.

But I'm thinking of all the people who will buy and build there because it's all they can afford, because property there, below sea level, is very very cheap in comparison to the high ground. Even then, if they understand the risk and take it, that's fine, but public money shouldn't be used (thrown down the drain) to do it. That's just irresponsible.

Okay, then see if public funds, incentives, or tax breaks don't find their way into gentrification of the area. That's not okay to me.

If we had a properly functioning government, the people whose homes were destroyed would be given grants to purchase new housing in a safer part of the city, and the government would rehabilitate this area as green space while at the same time trying to reestablish the barrier area as was shown on NOW or Bill Moyers a while back. However, in Bush/Cheney/Halliburtonland my money is on Eureka and Hugh. The Bushies will just wait for the poor people who lived there to abandon the property (or if they get too impatient just go in and grab it), then use what little is left in the treasury or what they can still borrow from China to build luxury condos or casinos.

"...the people whose homes were
destroyed would be given grants
to purchase new housing in a safer
part of the city, and the government
would rehabilitate this area as green
space...
Posted by: Vegan4Hillary"

Amen Vegan! You deserve a juicy burger for saying that! (Just joking...no offense.)

I, perhaps foolishly, have faith that Bush/Cheney/Halliburtonland will be history after next year, and that none of these condos in the sky will appear via taxpayer money before then. I feel pretty confident about the latter, and fairly confident about the former.

By the way, are these condos-funded-by-taxpayer-money, mentioned by Eureka and Hugh, an established thing that has a chance in hell of happening in New Orleans (examples?), or are you folks just assuming here. Isn't taxpayer money spent by our Democrat-controlled Congress? If anybody has any real facts to support that this will happen, present them. If this is just a bunch of "don't trust anybody over 30" talk, then I'd submit that you're wasting Spirit's time, as if that, time on a Sunday night, had any value at all.

Spirit, you say,

"What I've spent the day trying to get even one person to agree on is that we should not rebuild on ground below sea level."

Okay, serious question: Why not? Had it been done properly, there' wouldn't've been catastrophic flooding.

Little Rock isn't in a natural environment any more. Neither are most cities.

I spend a fair amount of time fretting over the sorts of events that could turn my favorite places (and a few I don't much like--Dallas, Los Angeles) into wastelands. Think about water supplies and the entire southwest.

I didn't mean to imply that development would be *fully* funded by public money, mind you -- just that public incentive would be somewhere in the mix. And, yes, I'm purley assuming here, based on how hallicheneybushburton operates. (Picturing Bush and Barbour in white rocking chairs on Haley's new veranda once his vacation home is rebuilt).

Although I'm well over 30 myself, I trust these sons-of-bitches about as far as I can throw them, which is not nearly as far as I'd like.

(Click bluename for photo)

No offense taken, Spirit -- veggieburgers are tasty and juicy. That is, of course, surely what you meant. I won't defend Congress too much -- about the best thing that can be said of them is that they're generally not as actively evil as the Bushies -- but it seems like in these cases, Congress appropriates the money with good intentions and for good causes but then when the republicans in the executive branch administer the doling out of funds, it always ends up going not to the people who need it and for whom it was intended, but to, well, build luxury condos in Tuscaloosa. Remember the 9/11 money that ended up in Montana or somewhere. I'm not sure whether this is bad drafting on the part of Congress or just bad intentions and a lack of policing by the executive, but either way we should all be really pissed.

"Okay, serious question: Why not?
Had it been done properly, there'
wouldn't've been catastrophic flooding.
Posted by: John A Arkansawyer"

Serious response: You're still talking about the past and I'm talking about the future. The best walls the Corps of Engineers can build, if they do their job, are designed to withstand Category 3. That's what the new levees are designed for.

So what happens when a Category 4 or 5 hurricane hits? They fail and it floods again. More people die. Why are you wanting this to happen? Just so you can point a finger at George Bush?

We need to admit that nature is stronger, much stronger than we are. If we allow people to rebuild their lives below sea level on the Gulf Coast, we're condemning a lot of them to death. Why do you want to do this? Do you put that much faith that the Corps of Engineers can meet their Category 3 goal, or is your faith that a Category 4 or 5 will never strike New Orleans.

I say again, I would never have moved people out of their homes there. But now that they are GONE, it's insane to put people below sea level again and rely on the Corps to beat Mother Nature.

Spirit, recent news of Katrina relief money going to fund high dollar condo construction in Alabama... far north of the line of hurricane damage.. Also it's been reported for a long time here and there (sorry I don't have a link handy) that RE devolopers have been trying to buy out lower ninth ward property since just a few weeks after Katrina hit.. Removing all those poor democrats was the cake.. RE devolopment in a new Republican LA/N.O. is just a part of the icing.

I'm giving it up now. An entire day saying don't build below sea level on the Gulf Coast, and not a single soul agreeing with me.

The day after a hurricane, property above sea level is water-free and needing a good cleaning. Property below sea level is still under water for a few weeks, after which it must be bulldozed. The choice seems pretty clear to me. I guess none of you are Vulcan.

I don't understand what's wrong with the rest of you. I think I need to let this blog go it's own way for a while. See you in a few...