Arkansas Blog

So if the owner of a Christian bookstore refused to hire a gay person, because homosexuality is against her religious beliefs (said beliefs being the basis for the business), then the gay person can sue the owner of the Christian bookstore?

So the actual, Constitutionally-protected, right of free expression of one's religion is now subservient to the right of someone's homosexuality?

You're okay with that, aren't you?

I foresee a huge rush of gay people wanting to work at Christian bookstores. That's like black people wanting to work at the Klan headquarters, more or less.

Religion has killed so many people that the more restrictions we put on it, the better. Fundamentalist Christians and their denominations have proven to be a greater threat to society than machine guns.

Hey Arkasnas Red, what if I were an athiest. Does that mean I should be able to fire all the Christians who work for me?

Hey, an atheist with a Bible bookstore. That's fair minded.

So you don't think someone with an agenda won't try to apply at a Christian bookstore and sue the life out of them when they don't get hired?

Okay, then KnocKnock. Let's say I was at, oh, a university, where I'm interested in upholding science and reason. It's okay, then, if I refuse to hire Christian professors? Or fire them if I found out they're Christian?

Let's say I was the owner of a very profitable strip club, and....
I'm sorry. Lost my train of thought.

there are exemptions for small business--like your religious bookstore.

also not to defend the 25 dems who voted no, but the real vote was on the republican motion to recommitt--kill the bill. on that vote only 14 dems voted to kill the bill and ross and berry voted with snyder.

How do we know the applicant didn't come into the interview with a belly shirt on and a feather sticking out of their rectum?

Too soon?

Rev. Pat endorses the cross dresser. Click on Cato

This is somewhat of a bitter sweet victory, because this was the "watered down" version of ENDA (HR 3685) that did not have protections for Gender Identity or Expression (unlike the original HR 2015).

Still its better than nothing, and hopefully th e Dems get a backbone and put in transgender protections and maybe (gasp) someone in the Arkansas Ledge will consider introducing a state ENDA. Its also interesting to see the DINO's come out of their rocks. I emailed Mike Ross concerning this issue, and did not receive any reply....obviously this is his answer.

I will remember this vote Congressman Ross come next November. You can earn that Extra Class ham ticket (you're still only a novice) and get bills passed and bring us all the HDTV distant network stations on sat dishes, but your bigotry concerning GLBT Arkansans and Americans will not be forgotten from this ham op (general class) and trans* person.

Gays are already taken care of. I am so sick of gays telling us they want to be treated just like everyone else, and then go cry to the government like babies, and demand special rights. The same thing goes for gays wanting to marry. They are not discriminated against because they cant marry their partner of the same sex. Why I cant marry my best friend if I was gay. We have the same rights. Gays just want special rights. And by the way, what you gays do in the bedroom makes me vomit. And yet you walk around like you are the cleanest, purest, and smartest beings on earth. Just get back in the closet. Mark my words, your going to get a bunch of lawsuits because some fag thinks that mcdonalds didnt hire him ( or them ) because their gay.Whatever. AW

"I am so sick of gays telling us they want to be treated just like everyone else" awrocksu

OK chasv....quit hiding behind the new name...sheesh. According to my reading of the Constitution of the United States of America, "gays are just like everyone else." Only a dinosaur would make a statement like that. Only a dinosaur would think there are people and lesser people. We are all the same and unless convicted of felony crimes, we all should have the exact same rights.

Click on my name to read about a fine Republican who is 100% not gay, someone no one would call a fag. Someone awrocksu/chasv wants us to be like....instead of one of those fags.....

OK....I jinxed it by saying Boozman voted right the last 3 times....he just had to cast a bad vote to spite me!

I will call Berry's office tomorrow and demand an apology. Not only have I considered him a friend, but I have given a lot of money to him over the years and if he supports discrimination, (which is against the Democratic platform), I'll withhold financial support and vote against him next time around.
I suggest that everyone on the blog contact 50 friends and encourage them to do the same.
This just really pisses me off.

I cannot figure out congressman Berry.. I would have to say this year he has been correct more times than Snyder and often is the only correct D vote from AR... Then he does something like this.. so blatantly discriminatory. And at a time when the best thing D's could do politically is get out ahead of the focus on the family christian communists..or whatever they call themselves and call them out for the bigots they are. Do the right thing, stand up for it instead of taking a whipping for being wrong over and over again.

awrocksu
You say "what you gays do in the bedroom makes me vomit. " So, if your wife gives you a blow job, or lets you, uh, go up the other entrance, you'd vomit too? I'm not a big fan of the latter, but the former is a major plus for any lady interested in further "communications". Must we then assume your a missionary position only, don't look, and get it over with type? Or have you experimented with the dark side and had your woody waxed? If you haven't, I'll be the first to highly recommend it.

I understand that gays/lesbians want to be considered "normal" but lets face scientific facts...they are not.The human species reproduces in one way and one way only and that is by male to female union.If there is anyone that can show that two males or two females can reproduce the species on their own then I will admit I am wrong,but as far as I can tell no child has EVER been produced by same sex unions EVER.Yes I know that humans have more complex feelings and emotions that animals do not and that some species of animals can spontaniously change sex when the need arises but you still cannot get around that ANYTHING outside of male to female union is by strict scientific standards "abnormal" for our species.Now I do not mean that people should be denied housing or jobs because of their behavior but this madness of elevating gay/lesbian and whatever other abnormality that springs up in humans to the same level of heterosexuality has got to stop.

Since when was a person defined by what he did in his or her bedroom?!?!?! Should I go into a job interview reminding everyone that my wife and I enjoy doing 69s? It's no one's business. The majority of people in the world do not agree with homosexuality yet you people still insist on shoving it in peoples' faces. I don't remind everyone that I'm straight, why do you have to remind everyone that you're gay? You can't force people to see things the way you do and that is what this legislation does. It penalizes people who have different values and ideas. That is why I am against this law. I don't hate gay people and the truth is, you gays wouldn't have a safe haven here in the US if it weren't for Christianity!!!!! Try and ask gays in the middle east how they are treated. Oh, wait, they are all dead or in hiding. Hmmmm. At least they don't have to put up with people that don't agree with their lifestyle choice like these poor oppressed homosexuals in the USA. Keep fighting against those who protect you and you might find yourself standing alone when the shit hits the fan!!!!!!!!!!!! Fools are never happy, even when they have everything.

mrjeff.. are you on drugs or just under the age of 11? What makes you think sex is only about making chitlins.. You call that normal? You think marriage is only about reproduction? I don't understand homosexuality but i have to say I feel a sense of bewilderment and sympathy (among other things) trying to understand your views on sex or marriage in any formation. Perhaps you need to just quit trying to get a grip on homosexuality and work on having fun with whatever floats your own boat. After all isn't that most important... as long as we don't condemn others for something we may not even understand. I don't get you but wish you only the best...

At least you seem to get the point others deserve any rights you may have... except it's not about elevating..it's about ending bigotry and oppression in any form.

this is going to be kind of like when my cousin told me she hated the aclu. she said it was because of a certain case they defended . i explained that it wasn't them. she then said it was another case. i looked it up and i told her it wasn't them again, she said it was another case, i said that was somebody else. she kept naming reasons to hate the aclu but none of the reasons were right, they were all cases that were all other people and she finally said well they just mess with peoples lives. well that is what is happening here. the people are going to find out that the gays do nothing wrong but they are just going to say that they just mess up peoples lives anyway.

In matters of sexuality, are nuns normal? How about veterans who lost their bits on the battlefield? Only "normal" people are entitled to basic (American?!) human rights and protection from oppression?

Oh yeah, and you have to be married to seal the deal on normalcy. Married people = stability. The widow woman who took in her infant niece 8 years ago when she was orphaned has no business raising that child. But the married couple cooking meth and hosting cockfights (uh-uh-uhn!) should be able to adopt the little girl. Makes sense to me.

Some of you people should not call yourselves Christians. You're just scared of what's not normal. (If you get to the Pearly Gates and Saint Peter is tsk-ing and shaking his head, just be reminded of this blog thread.)

We needn't discuss whether one person chooses his/her/other sexuality.

It is what it is and it's none of you're beeswax.

The human species reproduces in one way and one way only and that is by male to female union.If there is anyone that can show that two males or two females can reproduce the species on their own<<<

Ok, let's hear it for Mary Cheney and her wife. Both have sworn off dick and they have this child.
Ark would take it away and she could be fired from any job.

Why do I have this feeling we've been joined by the won't-ever-serve-in-Iraq young Republicans all of a sudden? Obviously mrjeff and chidochuck have yet to even have sex. What is normal...is what 2 consenting adults of any sex choose to do together in private. If sex in America was only for the creation of another human, they'd only be about 158 sober people FK'ing tonight.

Who are you to tell me what is normal? How can you vote for Cheney-Bush and even pretend to be normal yourself? Waging a fake war to steal oil is far more abnormal and sinful than any sex act performed by any human or animal.....even with a child! I'm not a big fan of sex with children...but even that goes pale next to the slaughter of nearly a million people in Iraq.

You children and old dinosaurs are always talking about the majority this and the majority that....but you fail to understand we've seen this movie before...the majority didn't want white and black marrying, before that they didn't want them eating together or going to school together. Before that the majority didn't want women to vote. Years before that the majority thought slavery was A-OK. And if you go way back...the majority wanted Jesus crucified.

Learn a little history before you show your ignorance in public. And just wait until Jeff Gannon/Guckert writes his tell-all book. I think you'll find out your beloved President has a little taste for the male tail. Wise up!

Homosexuality is a perversion. It is good and natural for a man to be with a woman, not another man. Think about what exactly it is they do. It is an utter sickness for a man to sexually be with another man as he would be with a woman. It is harmful to the person's own soul who commits these indecent acts, and it is harmful to the community around him. Homosexuality is moral corruption and wickedness. The fact that some of you who have posted here have accepted the flow of this current society's gradual acceptance of what is perverse, and not only accept it but then vehemently defend it, shows that you have lost your way, not just a little, but exceedingly. Wake up. Being gay is not acceptable, good or normal. It is wrong. Man was never intended to be like this. It is a mark of the degeneracy of a society. This is a warning from God. God has given men over to their own lusts. Heed the warning!

I understand that after words like this, some immediately think, "that's hate speech", '"that's not tolerant", "that's ignorance", "that's not progressive". You think this because that is what you've been taught to think about such contrary opinions. But I say, think for yourselves. They don't own you. If you know in your heart it's wrong, don't buy their lie. Our consciences tell us it's wrong. We innately know it's wrong because we were made in the image of God and not meant to run around like animals in heat. There is great societal pressure to conform. We're taught, "everything is ok so long as it's not harmful and it's between two consenting adults." This is not true. Not in the eyes of God. Truth is not relative. God's Word is true, and he says it's an abomination. Furthermore, I tell you the acts and lifestyle's we lead affect everyone around us. Honestly ask yourself, when you think of what you want for your son, is it your hope and dream that your son has sex with another man when he grows up? No, that's sick. It's wrong. Then why is it acceptable for the man next door to be gay? Is that a great role model for your children? Come to your senses. Wake up, people! How could you think gay is ok?

"You are a homophobe", some may say. Again, this is a quaint little saying developed to put those who think contrary to them on the defensive. I do not fear homosexuals. I do not fear men who can only destroy the body, but I fear God, who after destroying the body, can destroy the soul in hell. Perhaps we should ask, are you a Christophobe? Do you hate Christians because they follow Christ? Do you even know who Christ is? Christ died to save people from their sins. He wants to save you from the depravity of your heart, and how much clearer is depravity demonstrated than in committing indecent acts with other men?

I know that a lot of gay people were made that way by older gay men who preyed upon them when they were younger. This is a travesty. You may not want to be gay. You may feel you are stuck. There is a way out. Jesus is the Savior. He is the Redeemer. He can forgive your sins, heal you and cleanse you from all sin. He can make you pure and whole again.

This is what America needs, this is what the world needs. We need to be saved from our sins. Jesus is the Savior, and he's coming again. When he comes again as king of heaven and earth, it will be well with you if you believe in him. But if you refuse his tender mercies, and spit on his sacrifice for you, what sacrifice is left? You will yet be under the condemnation of your sins, with no recourse. Believe in him today. He is only a prayer away.

"You think this because that is what you've been taught to think ... "

Generally, no. We think this because it's what we think. Wingnuts are the ones who are *taught* to think a certain way, only it isn't thinking. It's just parroting.

John3:16 - Do you disapprove of gay people because they are gay or do you hate the way they make your loins tingle at the site of a sweet ass in a pair of rainbow colored booty shorts?

It OK...you can tell me, I watch Law & Order.

BTW, We have reviewed your internet history and found www.meatspin.com scattered throughout your browser history.

Everything in moderation - including religion.

How are the people hiring you knowing whether you are gay or not if you are not "pronouncing it to everyone"

Or maybe you are "swishing" when you walk, or "lisping" when you talk. If you wouldn't say anything about your sexuality, they would never know you are gay. But you just can't shut up. You always ram it into everyone's faces. I don't tell people where I work what my husband and I do in bed. No one wants to hear it. So why do you gays think that everyone wants to hear what you do behind closed doors.

And for the gays who say they were "born that way", God gives us FREE WILL. So apparently it is by YOUR OWN FREE WILL that you are gay.

It's sort of like a straight person cheating on their spouse saying "I was born to cheat on you" No. It is free will.

Discriminating against someone because of a disability or the color of their skin, is wrong. Discriminating against someone because what they choose to do and how they choose to act is really not discrimination at all.

It is called employment at will. A boss can fire you because he doesn't like the color of your eyes. I was fired because I looked like my bosses ex-wife. Yes, it doesn't seem right, but it's not illegal. I couldn't help the fact that I look a certain way. But there are no laws to protect against THAT.

Arkansas is an "at will" state where you can fire people for danged near anything, except sex, race, handicap, etc, but given that good employees are hard to find and expensive to train, we don't get rid of many without good cause.

I am certain we have gay employees now, though none so open as in the past, but that is a matter of day to day turnover and the fact that we don't delve too far into afterhour activities and relationships.

What I am concerned about is that a gay employee might engage in offensive, flamboyant, flaunting behavior in the workplace that makes other employees and customers uncomfortable. I have no qualms about dismissing an employee who is disruptive to the workplace, but once that employee is in a "protected class" it about quadruples the chance of ending up in court after a dismissal no matter how valid.

Dear John314159...

I don't believe in God. Do you have any reasoned arguments to make? All you've done so far is write five paragraphs of eloquent, meaningless crap.

To both you and Christianlady, I'd like to say this:

F*ckin's good. Hell, f*ckin's better than prayer, 'cause it delivers much more reliably.

I'm in favor of people doing as much f*ckin' as they can, however they care to do it, within the ethical norms that cover all activities--no rape, no taking advantage of children. You two should give it a try.

In fact--Max, do you think you could hook those two up?

Mr. Jeff, you say,

"Yes I know that humans have more complex feelings and emotions that animals do not...."

As best I can determine, your point is that humans have more complex feelings and emotions than animals do.

I would like to think that, but after reading this thread, and the garbage spewed out here by many humans (at least, I assume those blogging here are humans), I have my doubts.

Well, perhaps the feelings and emotions are more complex, though I could cite you many cases of animals that seem more deeply feeling and humane than many humans I know.

But one thing I'm convinced of when I read "logical" analyses such as yours or "religious" ones such as John 3:16's or Christianlady's: humans do not necessarily have more complex minds and thoughts than animals have.

Unbelievable! Berry just voted against legislation that would have protected one of his own family members. He has a great-nephew that is openly gay and lives in his district. I guess when it comes to saving his own political career, he really would sell one of his family down the river to stay in office. Shameful.

Any side of this issue you are on you really have to be impressed with the ability of such a small minority to enforce its will on the majority.

If you look back to 2003 you had Gay.com touting the new study Socialist leaning Progressive Canada was planning for Canada's Gay population. To garner the kind of support they were truely deserving of, the government was going give voice and get an accurate count. There was always the number of 10% of the popluation floated as the number for GBLT, but Canada felt it had to be higher, and wanted to prove it. The gay community was thrilled.

Opps!! The Canadian Community Health Survey found the numbers to 10% of the 10% claimed by the gay community. 1.3% of males and .7% of females. (.6% of females identified as bi-sexual - read that as the girls boyfriend had a nice two-some) Now anyway, back to my point, so now all the sudden this much anticiapted study shows the numbers that are more reflective of actual society, and the gay community goes nuts, trying everything they can to distance and detract from the study they were only too proud and anxious to be delivered. Fact is the real numbers are tiny, in a big city of course they can go up to as much as 2.3 % (again, CCHS study), but very very small over all.

So, that such a small faction of society can oppose its will on a majority, by hook or crook, intimidation and threat of lawsuit is eye opening.

It is a truely sad state for our country and our constitution the government the founders tried so hard to keep from being centralised continues to expand at the cost of the individual rights they tried to protect.

The deviants are calling the shots folks. Why are the pedophiles, the necrophiles and the beastophiles excluded from this generous "protection bill?" Imagine calling a transgendered normal -- these people are the genitally mutilated crowd on sex steriods. What manner of lunacy is this?
If you want to see some nice shots of a "gay" parade check out San Fransicko where NAMBLA members participate.

"Opps," justwondering. I wasn't aware that being accorded basic human rights depended on one's numerical status in the population.

On that basis, we'd not have chosen to desegregate and end legal oppression of African-Americans.

On that basis, we could argue that the Nazis were just doing the right thing by eradicating the Jewish population of middle Europe in the mid-20th century, since Jews were in a minority.

When the rights of a minority are abridged, ignored, and trampled on, then the rights of everyone suffer.

In fact, your argument doesn't hold water in any case (as Sbaker's doesn't), given that a clear majority of Americans--substantially more than 50%--support the protection of gay rights for gay and lesbian citizens--as does the vast majority in the democratic nations of the world.

Sbaker, if you want to see a "non-gay" parade featuring heterosexual hijinks in all varieties, you have only to drive down to New Orleans at Mardi Gras during Carnival. For that matter, I believe you can see any manner of deviant straight sexual behavior on the internet. It's just a click away. Gays and lesbians have hardly cornered the market on deviancy, methinks.

Correction to previous posting: Everyone suffers.

Even the arguments of John316 and Christianlady are based upon the premise that homosexuality is a choice. I wonder if, when science has proven that it is not a choice but a genetic condition, those people will change their minds... Oh. I forgot, science is only an opinion. And the earth is only 6000 years old.
As much as J316 is convinced that "a lot of gay people were made that way by older gay men who preyed upon them when they were younger", I am quite certain that a lot, if not all, of these people who are so vociferous in proclaiming homosexuality a choice and denouncing it as evil are having a hard time battling their own inner gay demons. Examples of this, involving high profile people, are all over the news archives. Can you say Larry Craig? I think I have at least as much justification for my belief as they do for theirs. And that opinion is that gay people have no more "choice" about being gay than white people do about being white or black people do about being black. A duck can pretend to be an elephant - but isn't that a lie? And aren't there rules in the "Good Book" against lying too? Let's not pretend that EVERYBODY doesn't pick which of those rules they choose to obey and which they choose to overlook. Everybody.

Good point, RickBaber.

I'm also struck by the disparity between John 3:16's username and the biblical verse (s)he has chosen for a username.

Years and years of Sunday school have burned that verse into my mind. It's used by many evangelicals as THE banner verse to sum up the meaning of the whole gospel.

If memory serves me, it reads, "For God so loved the world that He gave his only begotten Son to redeem the world. God sent not his Son into the world not to condemn the world, but to save it."

I don't hear much love in John 3:16's "good news" message. I do hear a lot of condemnation.

I don't find the word "love" a single time in John 3:16's message.

Is it any wonder that increasing numbers of people are turning away from churches that purport to preach good news but that actually foster the opposite--hatred and condemnation of those who are different?

Correction: "God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world...."

Basic Human Rights? Muddling - stay on target. When is a right to hire/fire a basic human right?
Hate to put you back on track like that, cute tactic, stay on target, don't go throw some PC rhetoric and hide behind it.

And if you want to know what the majority of the people in the county believe, not some straw poll that will bolster your ego, look to the statewide election results from around the country. From Michigan to California, every proposition for gay marriage... what happened? Hardly the bible belt there, and still....

point is, small group, a lot of power. Wouldnt you agree?

It's easy to see why there have been periods in history where Christians have been oppressed.. They are demanding (like many Islamics in other parts of the world today) that their myth bears the only truth which must be honored above all facts or other myths. When certain mythical truths don't fit... well it's ok...just live a life fillled with guilt and begging for forgiveness.. which might be fine if you stole a candy bar from the corner drug store but when you deny love and affection in any consensual form.. you are not being spiritually whole, imo. The challenge is how to love more, not less.

If homosexuals had not been beaten even killed for thousands of years..much less denied employment, ability to live with and love their partners or help raise their young family members or visit loved ones while in the hospital... we wouldn't need to single them out with legal assurances that society will no longer sit by and allow such oppression.. Most of the "oh no! Think of the lawsuits!" people just don't want to give up their bigotry.. I read the Bible a few times many years ago and I must say it amazes me how many people who embrace it are so willing to do it the least justice... many of you folks do the bible you hold so dear the least justice... Perhaps you should put the book down for a while and learn to embrace all of God's creations... especially the parts you don't understand or cannot explain in a few pages.. The book (any book) itself wont get you there its what you do with the world you live that matters.

<<<<<<<<<
per·verse (pr-vûrs, pûrvûrs)
adj.
1. Directed away from what is right or good; perverted.
2. Obstinately persisting in an error or fault; wrongly self-willed or stubborn.
3.
a. Marked by a disposition to oppose and contradict.
b. Arising from such a disposition.
4. Cranky; peevish.
<<<<<<<<<

I think a lot of christians here fit number 2, 3 and 4 (75 percent of the definition) while crying out about their connection of homosexuality and number 1.

Equating deviant sexual behavior to ethnicity is a cheapshot and very degrading to those ethnic groups that are used to justify homosexual behavior. The myriad of my black friends universally find this very offensive to be compared to a disgusting choice of deviancy.

It is curious that not a single poster has not brought up the CDC based facts on the average lifespan of male homosexuals which is on par with IV drug users; about 47 years, and the huge cost to healthcare all because of a behavior.

I note also, several that oppose homosexual behavior are called names like homophobe, nazis etc. I have known a couple of homophobes, not just people that find the behavior disgusting, but real homophobes. Both were molested as boys by adult homosexuals and both were molested in the bay area of San Fransicko. The truth is that homophobes were the victims of rape by homosexuals.

Yet more stupidity from our elected officials pandering to special-interest groups.

Unlike racial/gender profiling, how in the WORLD can you discriminate against an employee for their sexual orientation?

Unless, of course, homosexuals are willing to admit that they LOOK gay -- that they are NOT like everyone else. I don't talk about my sexuality or make sexually-related comments or innuendo at work (primarily because I, white heterosexual male, would be sued for sexual harrassment whether or not my comments were directed to another person).

So, gays want to flaunt their sexuality in other people's faces and not face backlash? And, how do you prove this discrimination in a court of law short of the employer stating in front of others or recording on paper, "You are dismissed because you are gay."? What's next? Homosexual Affirmative Action? Are we going to start putting our sexual preferences on employment applications?

Such absolute stupidity. These congressional reps need to be fired for wasting the country's time with this nonsense.

TR

this is the USA, and I suppose if you want to have a particular orientation, then you are welcome to it. Our troops fight for our individuality. However, as an employer, if I dont want to hire a gay person, the last thing in the world I am going to do is tell them why. So that being said, they can have whatever kind of law they want on their side. I also have the freedom to not hire them, just as they have the freedom to complain about it. God forgives all things, and they can take it up with him at the end.

The blog didn't properly identify my post with my name. The post signed "TR" is Texreiver's - not Sbaker's.

TR

I see what it did.

Arkansas blog, maybe you should think about changing the format. Putting the poster's ID below the line demarcating their post can lead a reader to believe the ID at the top of the next post is that next poster's ID.

Very confusing. I think my ID should be at the top right of my post, below the line demarcating the post above, or directly underneath my post, as a sig line, above the line demarcating my post from the next.

Just a suggestion.

TR

Trust me, Texreiver, whatever nickname you sign your post with doesn't matter. I can see from here you believe everything about you should be at the top of something. All we need is to demarcate you as a hater.

I wish homosexuality was a choice. After reading this thread, if I could, I'd bear down real hard and make myself gay. I'd actually make myself a pregnant black lesbian and then I'd have all the bases covered. The arrogance and ignorance and intolerance on display on just this one thread is enough to doom this world to disaster. No supreme being can save us. And any supreme being with followers like this should be waterboarded if not executed as soon as possible. I sit in my boxers in stunned amazement that this is 2007 and these haters exist.

Could it be that super Bible-beaters actually spend more of their day imagining what 2 men might be doing in bed than any gay man? I almost never think of it. I like Max...but I don't think I've ever once thought of him and his wife in bed....oops......OK....it's over now. Thanks a million...... If my neighbor chooses to push a hairdryer up his ass....why do I care? If one of your snakes bites you during your nightly devotional....why would I care? If you want to twist your children into knots with all kinds of loony religious rants.....why would I care? You're the one who will die alone and lonely....snot me.

And if you fear homosexuals so much...where is God's saving grace and spiritual strength all of you are supposed to get with your Kingdom of Heaven admission ticket? Is no, by your own words, the Bible God's armor? If it is so, why do you fear anyone? You all sound more like God's Pussy Squad.

Starve those gays and we won't have to worry about them lusting after our ignorant, backwards looking flesh! That's really would you'd like to see happen. And after the gays are gone you'll start snuffing Mexicans, then liberals, then Catholics....no one really likes them anyway, ya know.

Damn! I'm bearing down real real hard...and I'm still thinking about big boobs. Maybe it's harder for a straight person to make themselves gay than it is for a camel to penetrate the eye of a needle? Well...a pox on haters, there were gays before there were churches and so it will be until the end of time. Amen

Homosexuality is a mental disease. Period. It is generally attributed to low IQ and poor self-esteem and can only be cured by aggressive societal condemnation. The immense sense of guilt that homosexuals attempt to convey upon the general heterosexual population for their perverted thoughts and actions has only been rewarded by the forced acceptance of this horrendous disease. The minuscule percentage of those hosting this sickness have been dangerously encouraged by a perverse counter-cultural agenda driven by those in high places with similar mental disabilities. Child pornography and pedophilia are simply evolved forms of homosexuality, and bestiality is now slowly gaining acceptance among the demented few. What next? I'm afraid to ponder.....

Ancient Rome tolerated homosexuals to the point that this loving group was permitted to own, sell, and use young boys for all manner of tolerant behavior. The boys were given a conditional name and called catamites all in the name of tolerance. It appears we are headed down this same road only now the homosexuals have taken to name calling for all that fail to accept, embrace, and exalt said behavior. The pedophilic part is still in the closet but soon to be more recognized as the level of tolerance rackets up to the next notch. Access to kids is what male homosexuals are obsessed with and the proof exists for those that have attacked the Boy Scouts and those that infiltrated the Catholic church to molest altar boys. At one time the International organization of homosexuals promoted their pedophilc behavior by belonging to NAMBLA--since losing popularity most now attempt to distance themselves from their once beloved organization. There is now an odd alliance (excluding the GLBTP alliance) that has formed between homosexuals, the ACLU, and Muslims in their never-ending hatred of Christians.

An eminently reasonable and thoughtful post, Deathbyinches.

And, unfortunately, reason and thought only glance off the "minds" of those to whom you're responding. These are good ole white boys bent on assuring rights only for themselves--like the basic human right to find work and have job security despite innate characteristics such as skin color, gender, and sexual orientation.

Let one of them be fired solely for being a white male (or perhaps being stupid or offensive), and see what hollering would ensue.

Isn't it amazing, too, how their "reasoning" undercuts the reasoning of their mates, even as they prattle on. Justwondering calls the quest for job security (which every human being wants--hiring and firing on the basis of qualifications, not inborn traits that have nothing to do with work ability--) a PC rhetorical trick, and then along comes bigdog saying he'll never hire a gay person. (Hmm. Wonder how he will assure he knows if someone is gay or not. Ask Larry Craig? Get out his minister-designed gaydar device and see if it dings in the job interview?)

Sbaker spews out ludicrous "CDC based facts" about the lifespan of gay men and homosexual rape as the cause of homophobia. Interesting, isn't it, that he doesn't feel obliged to cite his sources for those well-known facts? (Don't you reckon it's because he CAN'T cite any such facts?)

You say, "Could it be that super Bible-beaters actually spend more of their day imagining what 2 men might be doing in bed than any gay man? I almost never think of it. I like Max...but I don't think I've ever once thought of him and his wife in bed....oops......OK....it's over now."

Absolutely so. Isn't it fascinating how these ostensibly straight men go right to the bedroom when they "thing about" homosexuality? A fact they might consider is the now well-proven psychiatric finding that homophobic men tend to score higher on scales of erotic attraction to other men than do straight men who find gay men non-threatening. For one among many summaries of the research that has proven this, see http://www.psych.org/pnews/96-09-20/phobia.html.

These fellows claim to be worried that gay marriage will undermine their heterosexual marriages. I would propose that their wives be very worried, instead, about why their men are so intent on engaging in lurid fantasies about what they imagine two men do in bed. A word to the wise for wives of homophobic men: next time you can't find your husband, check out the nearest airport restroom or rest-area restroom.

Deathbyinches, I also agree with your observation that "[t]he arrogance and ignorance and intolerance on display on just this one thread is enough to doom this world to disaster."

Makes me think of Gandhi when he says," I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ."

Or Nietzsche when he observes, "Christianity, I have been told all my life, is the religion of salvation. But I know my Christians well, and they don't look saved."

If the gay-bashers on this thread represent the true face of Christianity, is it any wonder that many thinking people choose to separate from churches that preach love and salvation but practice hatred and violence?

You can look up the CDC facts for yourself. Think AIDS et al. Interesting view on "homophobes" since anyone objecting to being robbed, raped, beat up, is really "phobic." The ridiculous notion that anyone that doesn't doesn't embrace an unhealthy deviant lifestyle actually desires said lifestyle. Does this same logic apply to women that are raped, children molested, beat-up, or robbed? By your logic they all want to experience those vile acts. How stupid do you think people are? LOL! Some of us don't buy the marketing of deviance even if it comes from hollywood. Get over it. True homophobia = kids molested by homosexuals.

Lumberjack, is there not a library in your forest? Or do you not have internet access to do some research about the issue of sexual orientation and mental illness?

In case you lack such resources, please allow me to educate you. The following is from the website of the American Psychiatric Association (APA), the central and highly-respected accrediting body for all bona fide psychiatrists, psychologists, and therapists:

"Is Homosexuality a Mental Illness or Emotional Problem?

No. Psychologists, psychiatrists and other mental health professionals agree that homosexuality is not an illness, mental disorder or an emotional problem. Over 35 years of objective, well-designed scientific research has shown that homosexuality, in and itself,is not associated with mental disorders or emotional or social problems. Homosexuality was once thought to be a mental illness because mental health professionals and society had biased information. In the past the studies of gay, lesbian and bisexual people involved only those in therapy, thus biasing the resulting conclusions. When researchers examined data about these people who were not in therapy, the idea that homosexuality was a mental illness was quickly found to be untrue.

In 1973 the American Psychiatric Association confirmed the importance of the new, better designed research and removed homosexuality from the official manual that lists mental and emotional disorders. Two years later, the American Psychological Association passed a resolution supporting the removal. For more than 25 years, both associations have urged all mental health professionals to help dispel the stigma of mental illness that some people still associate with homosexual orientation."

You certainly have the right to believe the moon is made of green cheese, if you wish, or that the earth is flat. But please don't ask that a reality-based pluralistic society adhere to your peculiar, unfounded notions of truth and falsehood.

That's the path societies such as Rome took as they fell--imposing the "truth" of a social elite on everyone else, removing people's civil liberties, substituting bread and circuses for open, reasoned political discussion in the public forum, pitting rich against poor (so that the latter could be more easily exploited by the former). I hope we will choose another path for our future--one in which the justice for all promised in our foundational documents actually finds expression in our culture and practices.

It is not hard to pick out who's a homo and who's not on here.
You that are better say all you gonna say because there'll be a day when all mouth's will be stopped. That is your's.
READ ROMANS THE FIRST CHAPTER WHAT THE APOSTLE PAUL SAID ABOUT YOU HOMO'S.
PAUL WILL BE THE JUDGE, IF YOU DIDN'T KNOW IT.

Thanks, Sbaker, but since you cited those CDC "facts," I expect you to point me to them. Otherwise, I must tell you I don't feel very convinced by your argument. I'm persuaded by facts, not opinions, particularly when the latter are based on lack of knowledge (that is, ignorance) and prejudice.

You ask, "How stupid do you think people are?" Weeell, after reading this thread....When people cite "facts" and then can't provide a source for them, I tend to look at stupidity as a possible explanation for their behavior. I tend to give folks the benefit of the doubt, otherwise, and I allow them to persuade me if they can point me to a rational basis for their beliefs. Otherwise, I tend to follow my parents' constant advice not to jump off the bridge just because everyone else does so.

Facts: the following is from the website of the American Psychiatric Association (APA), the premier accreditation body for psychiatrists, psychologists, and therapists:

"Can Lesbians, Gay Men, and Bisexuals Be Good Parents?

Yes. Studies comparing groups of children raised by homosexual and by heterosexual parents find no developmental differences between the two groups of children in four critical areas: their intelligence, psychological adjustment, social adjustment, and popularity with friends. It is also important to realize that a parent's sexual orientation does not dictate his or her children's.

Another myth about homosexuality is the mistaken belief that gay men have more of a tendency than heterosexual men to sexually molest children. There is no evidence to suggest that homosexuals are more likely than heterosexuals to molest children."

Facts: the following is from the website of CCR, Coordinated Community Response on Sexual Assault:
"The vast majority of those who perpetrate sexual assault are heterosexual males. 84% of those who perpetrate are male (Finkelhor, 1984). 83% of child molesters are heterosexual while the remaining 17% are bisexual (Groth, 1979). It is also possible for gay men to be assaulted by their partners."

Since you have challenged me to look up those CDC "facts" you're citing, I hope you'll do some research and see how credible Finkelhor and Groth are as researchers.

chasv-

Paul will be the judge? I thought God was the judge?

And really, why do you people get a boner at the thought of someone that disagrees with you burning for eternity? Very Christ-like.

While I'm at it...as much as I would like to sift through biblical interpretation to prove to all of you who say that the Bible condemns homosexuality, President Bartlett beat me to it.

President Josiah Bartlet: Good. I like your show. I like how you call homosexuality an abomination.
Dr. Jenna Jacobs: I don't say homosexuality is an abomination, Mr. President. The Bible does.
President Josiah Bartlet: Yes it does. Leviticus.
Dr. Jenna Jacobs: 18:22.
President Josiah Bartlet: Chapter and verse. I wanted to ask you a couple of questions while I have you here. I'm interested in selling my youngest daughter into slavery as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7. She's a Georgetown sophomore, speaks fluent Italian, always cleared the table when it was her turn. What would a good price for her be? While thinking about that, can I ask another? My Chief of Staff Leo McGarry insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2 clearly says he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself or is it okay to call the police? Here's one that's really important because we've got a lot of sports fans in this town: touching the skin of a dead pig makes one unclean. Leviticus 11:7. If they promise to wear gloves, can the Washington Redskins still play football? Can Notre Dame? Can West Point? Does the whole town really have to be together to stone my brother John for planting different crops side by side? Can I burn my mother in a small family gathering for wearing garments made from two different threads? Think about those questions, would you? One last thing: while you may be mistaking this for your monthly meeting of the Ignorant Tight-Ass Club, in this building, when the President stands, nobody sits.

So am I a "homo", chasv?

Is there some way that I type that indicates whether or not I am gay?

Or am I just one of many, many people in our country that stresses tolerance and equal rights for all?

So...which is it?

The amount of "Christian" hate speech on this thread is disgusting. If y'all are what passes for Christianity, sign me up for the athiest newsletter.

"I sit in my boxers in stunned amazement that this is 2007 and these haters exist."

I do, too. To state it as delicately as I know how (and certainly not as eloquently as MuddlingThrough would), I've never smelled or seen shit so disgustingly slimy as some of these postings. There is none so blind as s(he) who won't see. I'm out of here. Can't take any more of this stuff. Sorry I ever got started on this thread.

OK I would really like to know where I said in my post that sex was ONLY for marriage but yet agan the irrational homos and their supporters read into more than what was actually said.so many times I hear homos saying "We are normal...born this way....no different than anyne else" but thats not true and I defy anyone to prove me wrong with SCIENCE.I was only pointing out that our species sexual function is heterosexual at the basic scientific level,but people like chidochuck want to go off on a rant about marraige and that sex was ONLY for having kids.......I did not.If I am wrong then please highlight the statement and post it in a response but you wont find it because it wasnt said.And to the person mentioning Mary Cheny and her partner having a child.....it wasnt produced by them being sexual with each other,it was produced by a doctor taking a MALES sperm into a FEMALES egg and fertilizing it,so lets please not equate ARTIFICIAL insemination with NATURAL/NORMAL reproduction.
And to those that want to equate religious people saying homosexuality is wrong as being "haters" maybe you should check the bible more thoroughly.Yes its true Jesus said not to judge lest you be judged but he also talked about not commiting sexual immorality alot and thats clearly defined thorughout the bible as well.

also another thing about Jesus teachings were that all those things that are considered unclean/sin/wrong?abominations are still wrong and should be pointed out as such. but when he said he who is without sin cast the first stone meant that while it was still sin that we should act with mercy instead of wrath.I know that some claiming to be Christians act and say ugly things and I hate that some forget that when pointing out sin to the world that Christians are to be "softspoken and loving and patient". To often though the irrational homos and their supporters act the same way...ranting about not having enough fun in the bedroom or some crap like that instead of admiting they have nothing to counter with but insults and rants.

Shaker puked out:
"Imagine calling a transgendered normal -- these people are the genitally mutilated crowd on sex steriods. What manner of lunacy is this?"

Typical reich wing talking points from the Phelps Crime Family, TVC, Wildmon Gang (American Family Association), yada, yada, yada. Furthermore your remarks are that of a dumb ass, ignorant, redneck, neo-racist that can't get over blacks being in public schools, and playing collegiate sports (including the UA).

Lemme explain a couple of things...

Sex is between the legs, Gender is between the ears. Transgender people do not choose this, its no more chosen than someone who is redheaded, left handed, autistic, and yes homosexual.

So I guess Shaker its just okay that transsexuals are fired from their jobs, evicted from their apartments, and even killed for just being who they are and you don't give a shit, huh. I would even venture that you were symphonic to the lynching of blacks, kinda like that kid (Emmit Till) that whistled at the white lady named Bryant in Money, Mississippi back in 1955 and ended up dead in the river tied to a cotton-gin fan. Or Matthew Shepard in Wyoming being tied to a barbed wire fence and beaten until he died.

I've f***in' had it with bigots like yourself and gutless pols like Mike Ross, Marion Berry, and Dustin McDaniel. Count me in the Revolution when it happens and pray that you are not one of those I have to deal with later.

MuddlingThrough, as you muddle about in your self-induced confusion, you may want to clear your eyes and pay closer attention to those that you rely on for information. The American Psychiatric Association is funded by the homosexual mafia as it takes in an enormous amount of contributions from those that wish to manipulate the results of its "research". Obtaining your scientific "facts" regarding homosexuality from the APA is equivalent to understanding the earth's climate via Al Gore. Socialist agendas far outweigh responsible research and factual conclusions as one can easily ascertain after a visit to Columbia University, or any other brainwashing university throughout the United Sates for that matter.

Homosexuals are the lost souls among us that need help to cure their disease. What they don't need is an easy conveyance of their guilt upon society by way of encouragement of their sickness. As a responsibility to the preservation of our once virtuous society, we need to do our part to eradicate this disease and rebuild the moral character that has made us the greatest nation on earth.

mrjeff: "I know that some claiming to be Christians act and say ugly things and I hate that..."
mrjeff: "the irrational homos"

Typical "christian" hypocrisy.

Being Gay Is Just As Healthy As Being Straight:
http://www.psychologymatters.org/hooker.html

For razorback dem:

So man made the Bible and it has all kinds of contradictions. Yes. We know. But this is also about common sense.
Homosexuals say they do what they do because it makes them feel good, and they have rights. Ever wonder why child molesters do what they do? When will they be next to say that it is their given right to molest and rape kids? Or how about the people who get off on having sex with horses/bulls/dogs/cats/whatever moves? Is it their right to have sex with whatever they want to? Or how about those that want to marry themselves so they get tax breaks?
It's time to say personal rights are there to protect human kind....we ALL have to stick to the rules...not just one or two of us, but ALL of us. And homosexuality is an abomination. It ranks right up there with child molesters and beastiality.

There have been 3 groups of people in this thread, that anti-homosexual, those tolerant, and those who are homosexual. Divide that into 2 other groups "Christian" and "anit-Christian". Among these lines so many different types have spouted reason of this, or fact of that.I have read each thread thoroughly and found all of this truly hateful, from one degree to another in some part.
Here I am.right among all of you. I believe in the Lord (in my way and of no other, just as you believe/or not in yours without me dictating to you as to how.) I believe in tolerance of my fellow man whether I like them or not. I am full of hypocrisies and of common sense just as all of you.for I am only human and flawed JUST like all of you.
Yet, I am a lesbian who is and has been in a steady relationship that is going through all the same ups and downs as any heterosexual couple yet without that one detail that some of you abhor so much. I am a good woman, and a good person.ironically the same as all of you.yet I have a daughter. I went so far in my convictions many years ago that I thought 'he' would be the 'one'. But he wasn't, and I didn't marry him knowing that I wouldn't make him happy or he for me. We are friends as were always friends then. Nothing but that.has changed.
How am I raising this child? Oh, thank you for wondering.she is attending one of your elite private schools. She is among some of your very kids right now.and she is no different than your children. She is and has always been raised well. I am certainly not bragging. But compared to many of the children you gripe about and hear about, she is, after all, doing fine. I am right there beside her at school functions and at church. Yes, I go to one of 'your church's, and mingle just fine with all of the 'homophobic' people there. I don't talk about this part of my life and neither does my daughter. She is straight by the way, having a crush on perhaps one of your son's at this very moment. She believes in God, the Father, and the Holy Spirit, Allah, Buddha, and all the other names of our Lord. She walks among all of you just as I do and I could not - COULD NOT- is prouder of who she is, how she is, and of what she's becoming. Yet here I am laughing in my oh so very sly way as to how everyone points their finger and shakes their head at each other for so many reasons not once have I heard two distinct parties try to find some common ground. Well, here I am walking common ground and lo and behold doing very well. I am at peace with my God, my daughter, and my life. I will answer to Him for my sins, whether they are for cursing at the TV when the cable goes out, spitting into the wind, or for whatever sin you say I am committing. I have like most of you read the Bible and see all the verses you point out and agree that the Bible states this or that with what you are describing. I will not make any excuses for why is says this or that or try to start with "But." The Bible says what it says. That is a fact. I know my heart. I know my mind. They are both sound and solid in their own beliefs, whether you think they are 'altered' or not. I know what is in my heart is true and pure to ME. AND TO ME ALONE. I will be judged by this, and I am certain that my peace with God is mutual.
I am among all of you as is my daughter.and by the way, she is free of 'sexual perversion' for I have protected her and loved her just the exact same way as any of you love your own child. In this there is no difference between you and I. Tell me again how I should not be raising this child. Why? She has her father in her life just the same, if not more as any one of you. I dare one single person from among any of you to try to take my child from me because I am a lesbian. I am a mother first, good person second, and someone who is gay third.
If I see you in church this weekend, I'll let you know I'm there by praying for you to find peace too.

Hey Rebekkah 58, you just leave my bitch dog, cows and stump horses outa this.

>>And homosexuality is an abomination.<<

Why worry about any of it? The rapture is near and all the decent people will be lifted out of their 200 year old graves, thru the roofs of houses and steel buildings, onward to a heavenly home. The rest will be left to screw dogs, cows, horses and argue with you.

Lumberjack, I'm really interested in your information that "[t]he American Psychiatric Association is funded by the homosexual mafia...."

I don't believe I had ever read this before you informed me of it.

Since I want to expand my mind, can you please point me to some research and facts that prove this? I'd like to know more about "the homosexual mafia." Do they have a website? Can one join them? Any information you can give me about that organization--which is entirely new to me--would be useful.

I'd also be interested to know the facts and research that prove this "homosexual mafia" is funding the APA. That comes as quite a surprise to me.

All the sources I've read--and they're aplenty--states that the APA long ago (1973) stopped classifying homosexuality as a mental illness because, well, there's just no proof that homosexuality IS a mental illness. Abundant carefully designed and carefully monitored scientific studies of gay and straight people fail to show any correlation between mental disturbance and homosexuality.

I'll sure welcome being enlightened more, so I can stop muddling along. Please point me to some good studies that demonstrate the truth of your claims. Thanks!

Save your breath MuddlingThru....these are Christian Clones attacking you. The messages are basically the same: I speak for God and God speaks for me. State Hospital is full of people like that who hear voices, have visions, and think they have a direct line to the All Mighty. People have long feared the unknown or the different. Sometimes for good reasons, sometimes for bad reasons.

No amount of data or research will sway their mind. They don't need facts or figures. They don't want to accept the basic humanity of those they dislike. This hatred has been the wellspring which has fed many of the world's worst bloodsheds and inhumane treatment of people. It happens when people listen to their inner demons of scorn and prejudice and ignore the better angels of mercy and understanding.

That the huge majority of child molesters are hetero they ignore; that certain scriptures from the Bible demand outrageous penalties by any standards they ignore; that the most ironclad faith cannot be supported by fickle facts and flimsy fiction they ignore; that it's okay to despise Hitler and his butchrs and haters but it's not okay to criticize people who respond to homosexuality in a similar vein, this they also ignore.

They ignore so much that you simply just have to say that they are ignorant.

We are all created equal...it's the choices of adulthood that separate us and make each and everyone UNequal...this idea that everyone is equal is taken out of context and thought to be universal no matter the actions that we make in everyday life...and when you make bad decisions/choices and choose not to change to make them better, you are only cheating yourself.

Jake, you're right, afraid reason doesn't have a lot to do with this kind of blind, impervious hatred. And when you factor in the probability that some of the characters posting on blogs like this live in Topeka and are currently facing a multi-million dollar fine for continuing to spew hatred, you realize what anyone trying to reason with bigoted haters is up against.

Still, I keep muddling along, because I do keep believing passionately in that eloquent declaration of an eloquent Southerner, Thomas Jefferson, who said (and a big hat tip to CrazyHorse for reminding us of this unvarnished declaration that got our nation going),

"We hold these truths to be self-evident: That all men are created equal; that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights; that among these are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness."

In the late 1960s and early 1970s, activists campaigned against the DSM classification of homosexuality as a mental disorder, protesting at APA offices and at annual meetings from 1970 to 1973. In 1973 the Board of Trustees voted to remove homosexuality as a disorder category from the DSM, a decision ratified by a small majority (58%) of the general APA membership the following year. A category of "sexual orientation disturbance" was introduced in its place in 1974, and then replaced in the 1980 DSM-III with "ego-dystonic homosexuality", which was later dropped. Some controversy still remains regarding the category of "sexual disorder not otherwise specified" which can include a state of distress about one's sexual orientation, as well as the diagnosis of "gender identity disorder".

After the "activists" demanded that the record reflect something other than the facts by changing the name of their mental disorder to "sexual orientation disturbance", they realized that if they continued to influence the APA through additional special interest activism and donations, they could ultimately prevail in their quest to make an abomination a scientifically accepted, insignificant deviation from the norm.

Muddling: would you agree that liberty is a volitle word? and persuit of happiness is in the eye of the beholder?

so that means that standards should be in place...I am not religious presently, but was born and raised by a religious family. I do believe in the Holy Trinity and the Ten Commandments, just as I do believe in the Constitution of the United States of America...this should not be changed or manipulated by the person next in line as he sees fit.

What is the goal of the gay's agenda anyway? Where were they 100 years ago or even 25? It seems that the groups like this cause the government into bad laws. Is it not the Federal government that allows Indian Preference in certain jobs? - which is racial profiling ...Is the goal of the gay movement to do the same? It seems that they feel like they have little power and want more. Shouldn't anyone person go to a job interview and not want to be selected for this very reason? I am a member of the Oglala Sioux Tribe and was hired for my credentials/achievements not my race. If i was selected for being Indian I would have refused the job...

Equal rights are not represented well by the government! They should stay out...but too late it seems in Ark.

Gee.
That was fun.
I'm glad we finally got it all sorted out here, after all these centuries of people arguing about it.
Now, does anybody know how many people died violent deaths in Iraq while this thread has been going? How much did gasoline go up at the pump? How much money Bush & Cheney stuffed into the pockets of their friends? Just curious. I mean, we've been occupied here with important stuff like what men do with their own peckers and willing adult partners....
Thank you Reverend Phelps for sparking up our little blog.

As Gaddis said the other day, why can't the young republicans get their own blog and stop taking up space in this one? Now they've used a thousand kazillion pixels attacking gay and transgender people. Max's electric bill this month will be just awful.

I truly believe that anyone who spends so much time attacking another person because of sexual orientation or transgender status is just trying to cover up serious doubts they are having about their own sexual identity. Look at all the elected officials who loudly support legislation to prevent the GLBT folks from having the same rights as other citizens, but who invariably get caught engaging in the activities they supposedly find so unacceptable.

So, why don't you people muster up a little courage, get out of your closet and/or the Minn. men's room and stop being so damn stupid.

And to the person who contends GLBTs are a small group forcing its will on everyone else, nothing could be further from the truth. What they have done is bravely worked to educate people of the rightness of their cause. As a woman, I am in awe of their success; maybe we can take a page from their book and finally get the ERA passed.

why would a gay person want to work at a job with a boss that would have normally not hired him because he was gay - that wouldnt be a good sitation for either party

"...If y'all are what passes for Christianity, sign me up for the athiest newsletter."

Amen and me too.

Love.

I think a business has the right to set standards of behavior or beliefs. I don't think this will make it into law as it would over rule the military don't ask don't tell policy.

Thanks you mallen1 for sharing your thoughts and the story of your life. It's wonderful when any child is loved and raised right no matter who is doing the fine work or their situation. Having known a number of gay men and lesbian women I am not so inclined to think of them as bizarrely different from myself. When I see a gay person I don't suddenly feel a little sick or afraid. I have about the same reaction I have to seeing any other human with their clothes on. Naked...well...that's for another thread.

Like all classifications of humans, there are bad gay people like there are bad white males. Why must humans so often pick the extreme bad examples in any group to use to judge their feelings towards them all? Lord knows the list of horrible white men goes on forever. Why must all depictions of gay people in the news be 6 miles over the top? It fuels these haters like the gas in your car.

Unlike you, mallen1, I don't have a religious bone in my body...I once did...but no more. So these Phelps-ites are proving nothing to me when they site 2000 year old hogwash. I like to quote Marvel Comics back to them. Spiderman makes ever so much more sense to me than Jesus. However....when unprovoked I worry about people who believe in God as often as I think about gay men kissing. I don't find it hard to mind my own business and I honestly believe everyone should be free to believe as they please.

Obviously chasv has printed out sample pages from past AT blogs and passed them around in his Sunday School class. We've been invaded! But that is actually a good thing. Since all the Cheney-Bush lovers have slunk away....it's been pretty boring on the blog lately. I welcome the Christers! Bring it on as our President is wont to say.

Every hate line the haters type is better proof of their evil than anything I can type in this box. If there ever is a War on Religion, it's the posters above who will cause it. A not so careful study of American history shows we'll win in time......it's impossible for haters to hate forever. They'll die off like the dinosaurs they are. Congratulations mallen1 for being a good parent and a good person, we need more people like you in the world. And hang in there....you have lots of support standing in the shadows.

LumberJack, thanks for replying to my query about the sources for your assertions about the APA and the "gay mafia." Unfortunately, you're still not provided any. Are we to conclude that you just don't have any?

You surely do have a right to your beliefs, including the belief that the earth is flat or the moon is made of green cheese. Unfortunately, since those beliefs are not correct, I am not convinced that they ought to be endorse by social consensus in a humane society.

Crazyhorse81, perhaps I misunderstood the point under discussion: I thought it was "why would a gay person want to work at a job,?" period. When something like your hair color, your skin color, your gender, or your sexual orientation automatically disqualifies you for work for which you're otherwise fitted, you surely do have a right to ask for the right to work, seems to me. Liberty certainly is a "volitile" word, and the "persuit" of happiness is equally volatile. They were volatile enough concepts to set off a war in which many of my ancestors fought and died. I aim to keep trying to follow their example and try to assure liberty for all, along with the right to pursue happiness for all.

Ever been out of work? Find that being out of work made you unhappy and infringed on your liberty? Ever been fired because of your skin color or gender? If so, how did you feel about that experience, I wonder?

Glad you believe in the Trinity, the 10 Commandments, and the Constitution, by the way. We have something in common. I do, too. And I can't recall a mention of homosexuality in the 10 Commandments or the Constitution. Can you?

As a Christian, I'm rather ashamed, though, that so many Christians spew hatred in the name of Christ. I was ashamed when this happened in churches in my community during the Civil Rights movement of the 1960s. I remain ashamed today when churches that profess to have open minds, open hearts, and open doors slam minds, hearts, and doors shut.

As that Barna poll shows, we seem to be doing an abysmally poor job today of convincing folks that our gospel, our good news, has much at all to do with the central focus of both the Jewish and Christian scriptures, which is loving tenderly, doing justice, and walking humbly with God.

I mjust apologize for calling these Christian Clones ignorant. I didn't mean to distort the truth so much. They're just plain idiots. Lumberjackoff's comment about the APA changing is simply sour grapes. The stupid ruling had to be changed because it was stupid and had no medical basis. It was simply the prejudices of the times being encoded into their rules.
Anyone with knowledge ofthe history of psychiatry knows how volatile and mutable the tenets of this "science" have been over the past 100 years. Trick phrases like "gay agenda" mean crapola when used in such contexts. The phrase is just another homophobic's gimmick, similar to propaganda techniques used by Nazis, Communists, cults, and other vile groups based on class warfare.
You gotta watch out for the Khristian Klone Krusade. They have this emotional dementia and psychic paranoia about things they can't understand or accept. They think Psycho Babble is a holy book for psychiatrists, preferably the King Sigmund version.
What a buncha maroons, as the wascally wabbit used to say.

When people cite others' "agendas", they are simply hiding their own.

Muddlingalong, you have some good thoughts put into words...but let me ask you what does life mean to you? "That all men are created equal; that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights; that among these are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness."

The gay community does not promote life. How do they create men? They have no way of providing the gift of life by the fruit that were given to them. Therefore, all that I can conclude is that when the gay community speaks up, they speak up for only themselves. That is selfish. They want there life but don't want to continue it.

They have no investment in life. Life ends with them. They are protecting their rights for whom? They would fight for their country for what reason? The greater good? For family? For the future of their beliefs? For the community? No I must say. I have a wife and newborn baby and that is why I try my best everyday to do what is right and provide the best future for us. Otherwise, I would still be pulling all-nighters (teen and college life) and not give a SHIT as I did before my marraige and fatherhood!

That was my attitude being single and no family. No reason to care - I'd be better off dead without a family - I always knew better and so I CHANGED for the betterment of the greater good (my family).

OMG!! You "CHANGED", CrazyHorse, narrowly avoiding being a homosexual? Whew!

Hey dbi, jake, mud, widj, zelda and others on here I am going to do something none of you can do I am going to pray to my father in heaven for each of you.
You have no father in heaven so I will pray for you so maybe you'll be changed before you die and meet God at the Great White Thorne judgement. It would be better for you if you were to change and be at the Judgement Seat of Christ.
And Max too.

widj:

it was not a battle of homosexuality, but rather a realization that my selfish, individualistic, egocentric ways that if continued would stay that way. i own a debt of gratitude for the gift to live in this world, and wanted to contribute and give thanks, therefore the change.

now,
gays end life, period: guy + guy OR girl + girl = NOT BABY and THAT my friend is Oppression in the most deviant form. please address this - without life there is no persuit, period.

So - do they have the right to work, sure - welfare sucks look at the reservations...do we want to know your orientation, no thanks (dont go around prancing and dancing with pride)...as i remember in many job interviews sexual orientation was never questioned - and i have a lisp and great hand writing!!! haha...i just made a weak attemp at stereotypical humor

Finally, have the last word, i will read your post

Shit. I get left out of EVERYthing. How come I don't getta go to the great white thorne? What is that, anyway, something they stick you with? Sounds painful. Never mind. I'll stay away. But you guys are gonna hate that, DBI & Jake. I think it's like one of those TB tests they used to give us when we were kids...or something. No...maybe a Ted Nugent song. No that's "buffalo"....
Aw hell, never mind. It's late and ya'll are all prob'ly asleep anyway. I'll just go seek out some soft porn on HBO.

With CrazyHorseShite's twisted DNA logic, Lumberjackoff's "agenda"-based reasoning, and chasv's homophobes-R-us prayers, we best run and hide because these Chik'n Littles are warning us that the sky will fall on our heads just as it has on theirs.
They all have their points. If they comb their hair just right, they won't show as much.

Hating gays has all the moral meaning of the following:

CRAZY ETHEL

Ethel was a bit of a demon in her wheelchair, and loved to charge around the nursing home, taking corners on one wheel and getting up to maximum speed on the long corridors.

Because the poor woman was one sandwich short of a picnic the other residents tolerated her and some of them actually joined in.

One day Ethel was speeding up one corridor when a door opened and Kooky Clarence stepped out with his arm outstretched. 'STOP!,' he shouted in a firm voice. 'Have you got a license for that thing?' Ethel fished around in her handbag and pulled out a Kit Kat wrapper and held it up to him . 'OK' he said, and away Ethel sped down the hall.

As she took the corner near the TV lounge on one wheel, weird Harold popped out in front of her and shouted 'STOP! Have you got proof of insurance?' Ethel dug into her handbag, pulled out a drink coaster and held it up to him. Harold nodded and said 'On your way, Ma'am.'

As Ethel neared the final corridor, Crazy Craig stepped out in front of her, Butt- Naked, and holding his 'You-Know- What' in his hand. 'Oh, good grief,' yelled Ethel, 'Not that Damn Breathalyzer Test again.!!!'

In other words, hating gays is all a joke. Only it's not very funny.

Life liberty and the pursuit of happiness.. dedicated to the proposition that all men (I prefer Human Beings here) are created equal.. Under the Law.. You know it's just another affirmation of the Golden Rule if ya think about it.. Do unto others... Unfortunately we have a lot of others who seem to be quite willing to do a lot of harm for no reason other than they can't understand others way of life and that is enough right there to be willing to cause harm.

Interesting point of view there, Crazy Horse..if you don't want to or can't have children or a spouse.. you might as well just kill yourself.. You going to suggest that to a whole lot of priests, monks and nuns there CH? I guess Jesus should have done us all a favor too, by your way of thinking..

But it's so kind of you to consider it's ok for gay folks to work instead of live off welfare..Wow! Such generosity.. Ever consider you might actually be working for a gay person right now..Some of the richest folks in the world are gay..even in the Little Rock world...ain't it nice of them to not make you live on welfare?

Its one thing to be stupid and mean..it's another thing all together to insist on staying that way.

"The gay community does not promote life. How do they create men? They have no way of providing the gift of life by the fruit that were given to them. Therefore, all that I can conclude is that when the gay community speaks up, they speak up for only themselves. That is selfish. They want there life but don't want to continue it."

Oh oh....I see a few problems here. If we follow CrazyHorse81's reasoning then nuns and priests are wasting their fruit. They aren't promoting life by keeping their genitals isolated from people of the opposite sex. Oh wait......does screwing a child after church count? Furthermore...any bachelor or maiden lady of any age are being selfish for not doing everything they can to make sure someone pushes a child out their body.

And....oh boy....How many kids did Jesus have? Oh wait....he didn't get married...and he hung out with a bunch of guys. Sounds very gay to me. If only Mormon Mitt was one of Jesus's ggggggggggggggggggreat grandchildren....I'd feel ever so much better about him.

It's too bad we can't install a CrazyHorse81-cam and monitor him for the next 10 years. Would we see him knocking up his wife like she was Michelle Duggar or would he be caught lurking near the men's room at a deserted rest stop along the Interstate? Though obviously very ridged in his beliefs at the moment.....I detect he might blow in the wind later on....if ya know what I mean, Vern.

PS chasv.....I am going to do something you'll never do. Tonight I am going to get on my knees and close my eyes and think real hard about the very tip of my orange cat's tail. Then we'll both be doing something useless, but harmless. We need a lot more harmless in the world...a whole lot.

Lumberjack, 's me again. I can't sleep. I'm worried plumb to death about that homosexual mafia you keep telling us about. For mercy's sake, will you PLEASE send us some information about it, so we can know how to protect ourselves against it?

Can a body join it? Do you get a membership card when you do? Do they have a dress code? You'd think they would, being the mafia and all. You know, "Meet me at Van Buren and Markham at 2:10 A.M. with a red rose in your left tux lapel." I know more about the mafia than they think I do, since they're on t.v. and all.

And Lord knows, the gays do love to dress up. Does the homo mafia sport lavender tuxes, or do they go more for the sequins and rhinestone look like Liberace?

Come to think of it, maybe they dress like lumberjacks! Wadn't there one of them--a lumberjack, I mean--in the Village People? Or is it an Indian chief I'm thinking of? We all know those Village People were just fruits parading around in manly men's clothes to fool us into thinking that they were normal.

Didn't Kevin Kline wear a lumberjack shirt in "In and Out" when he listened to that tape about being a macho, macho, macho man? Lord have mercy! So that was a coded homo mafia reference, I bet, an attempt of that nasty ole dirty homo mafia to invade our homes through the medium of t.v.

As is well known, the gays control Hollywood, and they use t.v. shows--even kids' ones--to get inside our heads and make us think their disgusting behavior in bed (they spend about 99% of their time there, I hear) is normal. Why, I hear they even used sponges and things called tellatub to get us just wallowing in their perverted junk.

Since t.v. is all just one big code for the homo mafia's agenda, maybe "Will and Grace" was right when they showed that ole Elton John thing heading a homo mafia. So maybe he's the best illustration of the homo mafia's dress code? Them big ole glasses and all.

Help us out here, Lumberjack. We've got to know.

Lord, Lord, come to think of it, they might could be beaming homo mafia messages right into my home this very minute, through the computer. They may control the air space now, along with the media and everything else.

Why, my dog may even be affected. He's been sniffing and humping around with other male dogs lately, and we all know that just can't happen, since animals in the wild (so to speak) NEVER engage in same-sex sexual behavior. I know, I know. We all think we've seen that happen, but we're only thinking that happen the homo mafia has corrupted our minds by invading our air space. Sex is for procreation is for two animals of different genders, and any "evidence" to the contrary is what my one church-going aunt (the rest were heathens who may or may not already have been gotten to by the homo mafia, being teachers and all) used to call made-up s--t.

For pity's sake, since the homo mafia is everywhere and now bent (I use that word deliberately) on gaining total control of the country through special rights for flamers who don't deserve to flaunt their sin by having jobs with normal people, please, pretty please, let us know how to avoid having them take control of our minds!

Facts is all we need.

Thanks for caring enough to engage in real dialogue, CrazyHorse81, to keep trying to reason with me (though you have my name wrong: it's MuddlingThrough, not Muddlingalong). I just don't think we're going to come to a meeting of minds here. What deathbyinches, widj, and Eureka Springs say in response to you is about how I see things, and more eloquently put than I can put it.

First of all, I don't think any human beings "create men," as you put it. As a believer, I think that's God's business. Our job as human beings is to be procreative and co-creative, not to create life. If we do ever obtain the power to create other human beings through technological means--and I'm not entirely opposed to the use of such technology--I'll still think of this as co-creative activity rather than creation itself. The divine spark comes from the hand of a constantly creating Mother God, in my worldview.

I can't agree with you that gays aren't in the business of being creating life. I've had some phenomenal teachers who happened to be gay, and they created new life right inside my mind by the words they spoke and the example they gave. I agree with Erik Erikson when he says that people can be generative in all kinds of ways other than spawning children. I also agree with him when he says that many gay/lesbian people have a particular gift for that kind of generativity, a particular concern to reach out to others and make the world a better place. (Many don't, just as many straight people don't, but some gay folks I know are exemplary in giving, giving back, reaching out to those in need, in providing skilled medical care as doctors and nurses, in challenging our minds in extraordinary ways as teachers, in nurturing our souls as ministers and priests. Gay people were strongly represented in the fight for civil rights for people of color in the 1960s--way out of proportion to our numbers in the population at large.)

I also don't agree that sex is just about, or all about, procreation. My church teaches this, and I have come to see that idea as simply wrong-headed. It doesn't make any sense to me. It doesn't stand to reason. It doesn't represent what actually goes on in the sex lives of any couples I know. I very seriously doubt that every married couple hopes or expects to make a baby every time the couple has intercourse.

Nature itself naturally aborts the vast bulk of fertilized eggs, by sloughing them off the embryo wall before they implant. Otherwise, we'd be overrun with human beings--more than we are now.

As well as I can see, most couples have sex primarily to build their relationship, not to conceive children--primarily is the key word here. Which is to say, that they are no different from gay folks in their use of the gift of human sexuality. If sex is only for and all about procreation, why does the church marry two people who are past childbearing age?

Does it occur to you that, given the overpopulation of the world, God may well make some folks gay-lesbian to do something else than procreate? Have you ever thought about the many gifts that come into the world just because someone happens to be gay-lesbian?

Your own native American spiritual traditions certainly have viewed it that way, by incorporating the notion of berdaches who cross gender lines and play special roles in native American spirituality and religion as skilled spiritual guides. You may tell me that no such category of native Americans ever existed, but I know otherwise, from what I have read and from the direct testimony of other native Americans who tell me that, prior to the important of anti-gay attitudes into their cultures from Eurocentric cultures and their churches, these cultures not only were receptive to gay folks, but gave them a special place of honor in the community.

I will close by saying, CrazyHorse81, that it always disheartens me to see any oppressed group--native Americans, African Americans, what have you--pitting itself against other oppressed groups. We do the work of those who want to control and marginalize us when we try to divide and conquer, rather than recognizing what we have in common--the experience of oppression--and banding together to challenge the structures that try to keep us in our demeaned places.

More typos to correct in the last two postings (my 3 A.M. typing and proofing skills are even weaker than usual):

In posting one, sentence that reads, "We all think we've seen that happen, but we're only thinking that happen the homo mafia has corrupted our minds by invading our air space,: should read, "We all think we've seen that happen, but we're only thinking that because the homo mafia has corrupted our minds by invading our air space."

In posting two, sentence that reads, "I can't agree with you that gays aren't in the business of being creating life," should read, "I can't agree with you that gays aren't in the business of creating life."

Hey Mud....

I'm happy to know that you can't sleep without my reply to your post. It's certainly nice to have someone worry about you so much. I would suggest that you mellow out on the methamphetamine.

Out here in California, we actually spend a good portion of our days at the office or on the freeways to and fro making lots of money that we can consume upon our lusts. So, unfortunately for you, I have more important things to do than write on a hillbilly blog from Arkansas about freaks and goons. But again, I certainly respect your enthusiasm. I should caution you though to refrain from falling victim to paranoia, as you may soon become a mere classification from the APA.

Nice of you to drop in late in the day as this thread reaches the archives, LumberJack. I'm sorry you were not apprised when you began posting on the blog that you were dealing with "a hillbilly blog from Arkansas about freaks and goons."

Did someone invite you to post, and you only later found out you were interacting with hillbillies? As a proud citizen of Arkansas, I apologize to you that you have had to match wits with the likes of us, rather than with your charming and educated co-citizens--e.g., your great governor.

I suppose we ought to be flattered that you dropped in to let us know about the homosexual mafia? You know that news reaches us slowly here, with those mules that have to slog through the forests and swamps to reach the outback post offices.

Keep lumbering on, LumberJack. And if you do deign to enlighten us with some facts to substantiate your claims, we'd love to know about them, living in the benighted center of the country, as we do.

Well my muddy friend, I'll have to admit that you keep me coming back for more. I found this Arkansas Times site because it was linked to Michael Savage's website. It wasn't as if I went out of my way to locate something online about the boring state of Arkansas. I've been there - and it sucks! Driving through Arkansas with a California license plate is like wearing a swastika to a bar mitzvah. Never have I experienced such hatred and contempt from anyone as I did in that Third World state for something as nonthreatening as having teeth and an education. Of course, that was before I found out it was to become the birthplace of Satan himself, William Jefferson Clinton, and his punch-board, that evil wicked witch, Hillary.

If you want to continue our little dispute about the freaks and goons, please feel free to email me. I'm sure I'll find the time to list my many resources regarding the homosexual mafia, as I refer to it. You can reach me at either fuq_the_aclu@yahoo.com or treehuggers_suck@yahoo.com. After all, I do find your arguments and enthusiasm fascinating, to say the least.

Wow. That Lumberjackoff sucks balls, doesn't he?

No... actually Ricky, you're just an idiot from a Third World state. Based upon your viewpoints, I'd have to say that it's much more likely you're the ball-sucker here. So snap out of it, keep focused on the prize (vagina) and become a real man!

Tell you what, LJ, after listening to you talk I'm sure that if you moved to Arkansas that the IQ level here would go up a bit and it would go up considerably back in California.

I'm not going to whine about an agency whose main purpose is to protect the first amendment rights of Americans nor am I going to get all bothered if someone wants to stop idiots from denuding this country of its trees at a pace that is ridiculous and detrimental to our world. Fuq__idiots@yahoo.com is my source.

Maybe people get a thrill out of calling other human beings niggers, jews, kikes, queers, fags, spicks, micks, greasers, wetbacks, rednecks, chinks, bitches, ho's, m.....f.....rs, and a host of other derogatory terms. Maybe they feel it's better to put someone down than to treat them as equals and as human beings. I call these people Nazis because that's just who they act like.

If you talk like a stormtrooper, act like a stormtrooper, and think like a stormtrooper, then don't act surprised or insulted when I call you a Nazi S.O.B. They took this kind of thinking to its logical extreme and releasaed the worst terror and torture this world has ever seen. Let's hope this evil can be eradicated from our lives so people won't mind if we are:

Jacks, Jakes, or Jackoffs (our Russian cousins).

Thanks for the invitation to continue the "dialogue," LumberJack.

I must say in all honesty, though, that I think I've learned all I need to learn from you at this point. It's exceedingly interesting to me that you and a number of others posting on this thread from outside Arkansas have taken it on yourselves to educate us.

Sort of proves a point I've made on a number of threads on the AR Times website--namely, that there are attempts to play us like fools around these wedge issues, from people who seem to calculate that we are too undiscriminating and uneducated to know that we're being played.

I'm sorry that your drive through our state proved unhappy, and that you find Mr. Clinton Satan in the flesh. I have to say, I have a lot more admiration for him--and, in particular, his intelligence--than I do for your Mr. Schwarzenegger.

But the point of this discussion hasn't been to play state against state. It has been to point out that unfounded claims of a ridiculous homosexual mafia don't hold any water at all, particularly when those spouting that rhetoric can't point me to a single source to substantiate their claims.

If I were given to conspiracy theories (and that absurd claim of a homosexual mafia is such a theory), I'd be inclined to ask why this thread drew folks from many places outside AR, including California, Topeka, and so on. Looks like some folks outside Arkansas have a pronounced interest in working up hatred around these wedge issues.

We might just surprise you by being more adept at figuring out how we're being played for fools than you realize. After all, we're a state who has had its ridiculous political figures, including Mr. Faubus, but we've also had an abundance of distinguished thinkers and political leaders, too, including Mr. Clinton, Mr. Fulbright, Rev. Brooks Hays, Mr. Bumpers, Mr. Pryor, Ms. Daisy Gatson Bates, Judge Wendell Griffen, and so on.

I'd match any of those folks against the Terminator in a heartbeat. Good luck with your crusade in California. We'll work on our problems here, with your blessing!

If you check back in Lumberjack, go to the main blog here and check Friday Night Fights. It's a free for all and your name came up first. Sounds like they like you.....(as you've noted, you can't account for taste in this state).

Are you kidding me? A fight? I'm always game for one of those!

The song that I sing is to my Nation
A broken spirit to fix
My ancestors came here from Ireland
Back in 1846
Chasing a rainbow from Shannon
To this North American shore
Worked in the mines and the railroads
And fought in the first Civil War

And the smile in their eyes was a-shining
In the troubling times that they knew
True to the cause of the Red, White and Blue
It's the Irish in them that was fighting for you

Grandfather lived out in Boston
A hard-working man that he was
Earned his way in as a fireman
'til he joined the Army because

The smile in his eyes was a-shining
In the troubling times that he knew
But he gave up his life during World War Two
It's the Irish in him that was fighting for you

Father and I
We will always remember
The Nation our ancestors knew
Damn it! I'll say
Well it's time you discover
You may have forgotten what's true
There's a lot of Irish in you

And I've made my home out in Portland
On the south coast of Maine
Dream that I'd sail 'cross the ocean
To an Emerald Isle bay
But I find when I wake in the morning
That they've had it much worst
I'm an Irishman second to no man
But a true American first

And the smile in me eyes still a-shining
Something I never outgrew
True to the cause of the Red, White and Blue
It's the Irish in me that's still fighting for you

Uh.....MuddlingThrough, I wouldn't get too thrilled about the Clinton's and what they've done. Just a quick refresher course lest we forget what has happened to many "friends" of the Clinton's:
1-James McDougal - Clinton 's convicted Whitewater partner died of an apparent heart attack, while in solitary confinement. He was a key witness in Ken Starr's investigation.
2 -Mary Mahoney - A former White House intern was murdered July 1997 at a Starbucks Coffee Shop in Georgetown. The murder happened just after she was to go public with her story of sexual harassment in the White House.
3- Vince Foster - Former White House counselor and colleague of Hillary Clinton at Little Rock's Rose Law firm. Died of a gunshot wound to the head, ruled a suicide.
4- Ron Brown - Secretary of Commerce and former DNC Chairman. Reported to have died by impact in a plane crash. A pathologist close to the investigation reported that there was a hole in the top of Brown's skull resembling a gunshot wound. At the time of his death
Brown was being investigated, and spoke publicly of his willingness to cut a deal with prosecutors. The rest of the people on the plane also died. A few days later the air Traffic controller committed suicide.
5- C. Victor Raiser II- Raiser, a major player in the Clinton fund raising organization died in a private plane crash in July 1992
6-Paul Tulley - Democratic National Committee Political Director found dead in a hotel room in Little Rock, September 1992. Described by Clinton as a "dear friend and trusted advisor".
7-Ed Willey - Clinton fund raiser, found dead November 1993 deep in the woods in VA of a gunshot wound to the head. Ruled a suicide. Ed Willey died on the same day his wife Kathleen Willey claimed Bill Clinton groped her in the oval office in the White House. Ed Willey was involved in several Clinton fund raising events.
8-Jerry Parks -Head of Clinton's gubernatorial security team in Little Rock. Gunned down in his car at a deserted intersection outside Little Rock. Park's son said his father was building a dossier on Clinton. He allegedly threatened to reveal this information. After he died the files were mysteriously removed from his house.
9-James Bunch - Died from a gunshot suicide. It was reported that he had a "Black Book" of people which contained names of influential people who visited prostitutes in Texas and Arkansas.
10-James Wilson - Was found dead in May 1993 from an apparent hanging suicide. He was reported to have ties to Whitewater.
11-Kathy Ferguson- Ex-wife of Arkansas Trooper Danny Ferguson, was found dead in May 1994, in her living room with a gunshot to her head. It was ruled a suicide even though there were several packed suitcases, as if she were going somewhere. Danny Ferguson was a co-defendant along with Bill Clinton in the Paula Jones lawsuit. Kathy Ferguson was a possible corroborating witness for Paula Jones.
12-Bill Shelton - Arkansas State Trooper and fiance of Kathy Ferguson. Critical of the suicide ruling of his fiance, he was found dead in June, 1994 of a gunshot wound also ruled a suicide at the grave site of his fiance.
13-Gandy Baugh - Attorney for Clinton 's friend Dan Lassater, died by jumping out a window of a tall building January, 1994. His client was a convicted drug distributor.
14-Florence Martin - Accountant & subcontractor for the CIA, was related to the Barry Seal Mean Airport drug smuggling case. He died of three gunshot wounds.
15- Suzanne Coleman - Reportedly had an affair with Clinton when he was Arkansas Attorney General. Died of a gunshot wound to the back of the head, ruled a suicide. Was pregnant at the time of her death.
16-Paula Grober - Clinton 's speech interpreter for the deaf from 1978 until her death December 9, 1992. She died in a one car accident.
17- Danny Casolaro - Investigative reporter. Investigating Mean Airport and Arkansas Development Finance Authority. He slit his wrists, apparently, in the middle of his investigation.
18- Paul Wilcher - Attorney investigating corruption at Mena Airport with Casolaro and the 1980 "October Surprise" was found dead on a toilet June 22, 1993 in his Washington, DCapartment. Had delivered a report to Janet Reno 3 weeks before his death.
19-Jon Parnell Walker - Whitewater investigator for Resolution Trust Corp. Jumped to his death from his Arlington, Virginia apartment balcony August 15, 1993. He was investigating the Morgan Guaranty scandal.
20-Barbara Wise - Commerce Department staffer. Worked closely with Ron Brown and John Huang. Cause of death unknown. Died November 29, 1996. Her bruised, nude body was found locked in her office at the Department of Commerce.
21- Charles Meissner -Assistant Secretary of Commerce who gave John Huang special security clearance, died shortly thereafter in a small plane crash.
22-Dr. Stanley Heard - Chairman of the National Chiropractic Health Care Advisory Committee died with his attorney Steve Dickson in a small plane crash. Dr. Heard, in addition to serving on Clinton's advisory council personally treated Clinton's mother, stepfather and brother.
23-Barry Seal -Drug running pilot out of Mena Arkansas , death was no accident.
24-Johnny Lawhorn Jr. - Mechanic, found a check made out to Bill Clinton in the trunk of a car left at his repair shop. He was found dead after his car had hit a utility pole.
25-Stanley Huggins - Investigated Madison Guaranty. His death was a purported suicide and his report was never released.
26- Hershell Friday - Attorney and Clinton fund raiser died March 1, 1994 when his plane exploded.
27- Kevin Ives & Don Henry - Known as "The boys on the track" case. Reports say the boys may have stumbled upon the Mena Arkansas airport drug operation. A controversial case, the initial report of death said, due to falling asleep on railroad tracks. Later reports claim the 2 boys had been slain before being placed on the tracks. Many linked to the case died before their testimony could come before a Grand Jury.

THE FOLLOWING PERSONS HAD INFORMATION ON THE IVES/HENRY CASE:
28-Keith Coney - Died when his motorcycle slammed into the back of a truck, 7/88.
29-Keith McMaskle - Died stabbed 113 times, Nov, 1988
30-Gregory Collins - Died from a gunshot wound January 1989.
31-Jeff Rhodes - He was shot, mutilated and found burned in a trash dump in April 1989.
32-James Milan - Found decapitated. However, the Coroner ruled his death was due to "natural causes".
33-Jordan Kettleson - Was found shot to death in the front seat of his pickup truck in June 1990.
34-Richard Winters - A suspect in the Ives/Henry deaths. He was killed in a set-up robbery July 1989.

THE FOLLOWING CLINTON BODYGUARDS ARE DEAD:

35 -Major William S. Barkley Jr.
36-Captain Scott J . Reynolds
37-Sgt. Brian Hanley
38-Sgt. Tim Sabel
39-Major General William Robertson
40-Col. William Densberger
41-Col. Robert Kelly
42-Spec. Gary Rhodes
43-Steve Willis
44-Robert Williams
45-Conway LeBleu
46-Todd McKeehan

WOW!

WOW. I've been reading a lot of these blogs and most of them make me want to cry. Let me just say Im not trying to flash my sexuality in any ones face, but i am a homosexual male with a religious upbringing. its great that christians have their beliefs and that you all feel so strongly about them, but if you truely believed that god was the ultimate judge then you should leave the judging up to him. now i dont live in a big city where homosexuality is generaly very promanent, so i being just the average hard working american trying to make it in life, dont want to cause problems for myself and with where i live im definatly not rubbing my "gayness" in anyones face.

i do understand christians and their strong beliefs, but when all you're doing is spending your time trying to convince the world and yourselves that gays are such bad people, stop. shut up, and look around, everyone is different, everyone has problems, but not every gay person is frilly and trying to hook up with you. gays have standards to thanks.

What also makes me sad is those panzy gay people that try to fit stereotypes because thats what they think they should be like. Well STOP. I thought letting people know you were gay was to be true to yourself, not to get attention. like any group organization or population of people, there will always be people who fit the stereotype, but thats just who they are. Diversity will never go away, if you are religious try to better yourself and ignore it. If you are part of the major diversity, be glad, though there will always be struggles for diversity, thats what shapes countrys, organizations and new bright and wonderful ideas.

ARK. BLOG: Hang in there, JOe.