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Like it is

I agree with CS that Wally Hall is due credit for his column this morning heaping criticism on the disingenuous John White, who heads the UA's Walton campus, for his maladroit handling of the departure of football coach Houston Nutt.

What President B. Alan Sugg needs to do is tell White to keep his hands off athletics.

So far, White’s athletic legacy is hiring Susie Gardner, hiring Stan Heath, paying a head-hunting outfit $ 90, 000 for John Pelphrey’s name and giving Nutt $ 3. 65 million so he could take a job with a conference rival.

Copy and paste to read if you haven't.

http://nwanews.com/adg/Sports/209017/

Comments

John White is a cancer to the University that must be cut out before he infects everything.

He hires more administrators than faculty.
He is exceptionally unfriendly to students and has demonstrated on many times that he does not care about individual students.
He has demanded the University pay for THREE different houses for his use.
He meddles in everything he can - athletics, student government, et cetera.
He made his first appropriation of university money on a $10,000+ desk for his office.
He makes it harder for Arkansas residents to attend the university if they are not in the upper echelon of academics year after year.
He has let UCA surpass the flagship institution in the size of the freshman class several times in the last few years.

In short, the man is a horrible chancellor and the UofA can do better.

Max, I never expected you to agree with Wally. Wally and the ADG has done more to cause the divide in the fans base that Houston or Nolan ever did. Wally needs to stop being an instigator and start using his column for good to help heal the divide. But not C Wallace Hall. I feel bad for the BBall coach should he lose tonight. Wally will be trying to run him out of town next. If Wally so good at being a chancellor and football coach and AD, why does the UA just hire him? He ALWAYS has the answers.

Before you critize White, he is making UAF a top tie research school. Complain the AR Dept of Higher Ed if you want more AR students. Put in a rule like TX that allows the top 10% of each hih school class to enroll at UT. The sad thing is, everyone is upset a White for SPORTS and not academics. Funny, isn't that the function of a college?

CBM -

I'm upset at White for sports AND academics. See my above list of criticisms and note that NONE of them are exclusive to athletics.

You make vaild points. And most of them are probably true. I guess most of my frustration is with one C Wallace Hall and the ADG. Nutt made out like a fat cat and I am sure Frank helped him with this deal. White is taking the heat as any leader should, especially since Frank is leaving.
I hope the program receovers soon, but I think we are in for a bumpy next few years in all sports. Put your seatbelt on tight. And yes, if UCA continues its growth, it will surpass UA at some point. Although UA is the flagship, it's not for all students. So maybe the lack of growth is not all on White. Just my thoughts. Maybe UCA is just selling itself better.

I doubt if Wally is going to win the Nobel Peace Prize this year. But he has hit the nail on the head.
Isnt this the same John White that gave Stan Heath the Judais kiss at last years SEC tournament,
and then presided over his firing, days later. Surely we can hire other Academics with some integrity.

White can cheer for Houston Nutt all he wants, but I hope it is from Hilton Head, SC. As for me I will root against Mr Nutt in all of his pursuits.

Max, you agree with CS? Does CS stand for Cocksmith?

Wally wrote a good column, but where did he get the idea that John White is an "intellectual giant" and a "scholar among scholars?" Look at White's bio (click on my name) and tell me what part of it speaks to scholarly accomplishment. White is a well-connected bureaucrat and not much more. While I don't doubt that he is a smart man, White does not appear to be any sort of tremendous scholar. Top-level administrators at universities are very, very rarely the best academics because the best academics prefer to stick to their scholarly interests.

Oh, fun times. The Nutt haters appear to be trying to find a new target. Who's next? The Chancellor? The athletic director? The basketball coach? I think the track coach would make a great target, if anyone actually cared about our track team.

CBM-
For the record, UAF is working toward improving their research capabilities, but UALR remains the ONLY research intensive university in the state. Their are certain criteria a school must meet to be given that title, and UAF is a several years from it.

Not only is RazorbackDem right, he's only scratching the surface. John White skipped the usual process, jumping over a long standing fraternity who wanted to build a house on a tract of land near the football stadium. Without informing anyone, White instead gave that land to his own fraternity. He had one of his vice chancellor's threaten the Traveller with a lethal funding cut if they did not cease their criticism of him. Go back and read some old Traveler issues. It's amazing how far they've come, from taking John White to task for his greed and secrecy, to actually lauding him for raising student fees.

Anyone with their eyes open can see that the U of A is better off without John White.

Ok, enough of this UAF crap. The school in Fayetteville is the University of Arkansas. It is the state's flagship university. UALR, UAFS, UAPB and UAM are all Schools whose titles include the name of the city where they are located. The University of Arkansas is the state's University, it just happens to be located in Fayetteville.

I recognize that most of you don't like the power and the clout that the University has, but that doesnt't change the name of the school. Calling the University of Arkansas UAF is no different than Calling the Democratic Party the Democrat Party. It is incorrect and stupid.

Was absolutely embarrassing to hear White and Broyles gush over Houston at that news conference. And to reward nutt is pathetic. I hope we hear other columnists let fly on how poorly this was all handled. If Wally gets it imagine what someone who can write (and think it through at a deeper level) can do with it.

How can anyone think this is not pitiful. He gets rewarded for so many errors in judgement that have directly caused the parting of ways. And his wife and family get rewarded. Only happens in fairy tales and I guess Athletics. But a University has a responsibility, if not an obligation to be a little more intellectually honest and critcial.

And they have an obligation to explore and find out for certain what happened in the Mustain situation.

Now I truly hope that the Mitch Mustain episode and all the emails really come back to haunt the program. They deserve it now becaue the adminsitration gushed over Nutt, gave him the money, etc.

Chancellor White embarrassed himself, the state with that news conference. Is that we expcet formoutr University leaders? That is sad. From Broyles, what can you expect. He can look at it from a "football only point of view I guess because he is what he is. But Chancellors have a larger responsibility. They teach lessons. They lead. They don't sugar coat. Academics is about presenting the truth, pursuing integrity. And that is so far removed from this that it is pitiful. He had an opportunity for true leadership, and to present this in a larger context, and frankly, he blew it. He blew it.

I do not see how anyone can see it any other way.

And all that aside. To let him go to an SEC West school and still pay him. How does that happen? I will never ever give a dollar to any Razorback Foundation anything ever. Not that I'm their market but I'll bet others who do give willnot. They should not. They were made ot look like fools. Amd if my kid was in Springdale I'd never let him go U of A, athlete or not.

I think Chanellor White should resign, seriously, because he lost all credibility. His allegiance should be to the truth, to setting the recond straght, to all families who send their kids there, not just the jocks.

Still a bunch of good ole boys that run U of A. And in 2007 that is sad.

Why isn't here more outright outrage over this even though it is only sports. Now it is bigger than that.

And I'm not even a Hog Fan and I'm still mad that Houston flipped everyone off and got everythng he ever wanted. Just not right. He played us all for fools. And he won!


John White's academic vision is quite clear. He presided over the demise of the University Museum and tried to abolish the UA Press, but he sold the business school to Wal-Mart for $300 million and the college of education for a smaller fee. He has built many new buildings but has wiped out the institution's bonding limits for decades. With casual neglect from the Board of Trustees, he has shifted academic priorities to make the school an "economic engine" and left his mark on the institution for years to come. It is a sports circus and a mediocre vo-tech school without an intellectual core, but no one seems to mind.

Big Rubbery One--if what you say is such an important point, why does the U of A system webpage identify the "flagship" as the "University of Arkansas, Fayetteville?" I guess the system itself is "incorrect and stupid."

Here's a better question: why do people get so mad when someone calls "The University" UAF? Does it really matter?

I forgot to include the link to the UA System webpage to which I referred. Click my name to see it.

"White currently serves as a member of the Board of Directors for J. B. Hunt Transport Services, Inc., Logility, Inc., and Motorola, Inc. He previously served on the Board of Directors for Eastman Chemical Company, Russell Corporation, and CAPS Logistics, Inc. His industrial and consulting experience includes employment as an engineer with Eastman Chemical Company, Ethyl Corporation and Rockwell, Inc. He has served as a consultant to such organizations as AT&T, Briggs & Stratton, Burlington, Coca-Cola, Coming, Digital Equipment, DuPont, Federal Reserve Bank, Ford, IBM, L.L. Bean, Tektronix, Texas Instruments, U.S. Navy, Westinghouse and Xerox. He founded a logistics consulting firm, SysteCon, Inc., and served as its chairman until its merger with Coopers & Lybrand."

Oh...I see, John White is all about money. What a 2007 kinda white guy he is! No wonder it was so easy for him to give a losing coach with wife and cell phone troubles a 3.6 million dollar going away gift. It's just pocket change to White and his kind.

Don't ya kinda feel bad that Eddie Christian Jr., had so few backers on this blog? Unleashed, wonder what kind of dirt little Eddie could have dug up on this entire smelly deal? That the Alumni Mafia is so connected with U of A sports should be against the law. But where else would Ike Forte have gotten that green Cadillac Eldorado back in 1974?

Understanding how we got Cheney-Bush is getting easier all the time. We are them, they are us. Go Hogs!

Maybe a taxpayer lawsuit for illegal extraction of public funds is in order. Sure the bulk of the buyout came from Foundation moolah but I bet there was at least a dollar of public money in there.

While I'm on it. I listened to Drive Time Sports recently and on past occassions when the Razorback shit hits the fan. Makes for good entertainment. Who is this guy Rick Schaeffe?. He has his ass so far up Houstons ass he has no credibility. The whole show--show a little intellectual balls once in a while, even though it might be over the heads of half of your audience.

Big time athletics poison Higher Ed, and deludes middle and high school kids and parents as to the role of a college education. No other industrialized country uses university campuses as a front for professional "ath-uh letics. Athletes in many programs at UAF have poor academics in high school/Jr College, fail to graduate, and have criminal behavior yet continue to play. What a sick message.

"Here's a better question: why do people get so mad when someone calls "The University" UAF? Does it really matter?" -- Gaddis

Yeah, it matters, Gaddis, if one chooses to be correct; and since you're a lawyer, I'd think you'd want to be correct. The institution's formal, chartered name is the University of Arkansas. Period. No "at Fayetteville" or "UAF" to it. Are you reading an Arkansas Times blog, or a blog underwritten by the Arkansas Times at Little Rock?

Geex, ask a simple question and get your professional ethics questioned.

At any rate, I didn't refer to the Blessed Institution of Higher Learning located in Fayetteville and chartered as the University of Arkansas, the Flagship Institution of the State, One True beacon of Light, Defender of the Faith, and King of France, as "UAF," durangokid. I just wanted to know why it mattered so much. Lots of people make a lot of terribly inaccurate statements in these comment threads, but that one particular "inaccuracy" (so inaccurate that the system of which the University of Arkansas is a part makes the same mistake) raised hackles pretty quickly. I just think it's kind of bizarre, particularly when the abbreviation in question is really not much more than a useful shorthand.

Gaddis, The link you provided is quite insightful. The sight does say "University of Arkansas, Fayetteville" However, if you look at the other schools in the University system you see something interesting.

University of Arkansas at Pine Bluff

University of Arkansas at Little Rock

University of Arkansas at Monticello

University of Arkansas at Fort Smith

What do you see in there titles? University of Arkansas at... The University's main campus in Fayetteville does not have any such designation. Why, because at Fayetteville isn't in the title of University. The addition of Fayetteville's name is simply to let you know where the University is located. From here forward it would be best if you refered to the University as UA or the U of A.

Thanks.

U of A is not a the top tier research institution in the state. I am pretty certain that honor goes to UALR. Arkansas State is not far behind UALR in obtaining that designation. UA is a giant athletic department disguised as a University. ASU was the recipient of the tobacco settlement dollars to build a shiny new research center.

As a student of both of the above institutions, I would rather attend them or UCA before I would go to Fayetteville. Too many people only care about the athletics there and not the academics. I would rather get the education than a football title.

Wasn't challenging your ethics, Gaddis, and regret that you took it that way. I was just a tryin' to hep out a friend, ya know. Reckon I should oughta have that second cuppajoe of a mornin' before gittin' on this blasted blog. (The dear sweet sainted wife thinks this thing is gonna be the death of me and she's probably right.)

Big Rubbery One:

If you look at the directory on the UA System website (click my name), you will see that the abbreviation UAF is used frequently. For example:

Scott Varady (UAF) Associate General Counsel 479-575-5401
Bill Kincaid (UAF) Associate General Counsel 479-575-5401
Tamla Lewis (UAF) Associate General Counsel 479-575-5401

Perhaps you should call one of these attorneys at UAF to complain.

Halo -

Different strokes and whatnot. You'd rather not attend UA and I'd rather not attend ASU/Tech/UCA/UALR. That in no way makes one school better than the other. However, your assertion that ASU and UALR are better research institutions than Fayetteville is laughable. Which University has the Diane Blair Center for Southern Arkansas? Which University wins nationwide solar boat contests beating such schools as MIT and Michigan? Which University has a brand new technology building? Which University has the best Poultry Science department in the country?

Now, there are things that ASU/Tech/UALR/UCA have on Fayetteville. UCA has a better PT program. UALR is the home of the med school. Tech and ASU have...well, I'm not sure, but I'm sure they have something, and without a doubt the chancellors at such universities are better than Prince John.

Your assertion that UA is "a giant athletic department disguised as a University" and that we downplay academics in favor of athletics is laughable, if only because you've never been a student here. That suspicion is created because the state as a whole cares about UA's football record, and nobody cared about my senior thesis (or the other exceptional theses written each year by honors graduates). Similarly, when UA students discuss things with students from other campuses, of course the topic will be Razorback athletics. Not that many people around the state care about the exceptional Philosophy department here. If you want to make sweeping generalizations about a campus environment, you might want to spend some time being a part of that campus.

devilsadvocate:

UAF is the only "Doctoral - Extensive" university in Arkansas.

UALR is the only "Doctoral - Intensive" university in Arkansas.

In these designations, "extensive" means that a university has a lot of doctoral programs and a lot of doctoral graduates per year, while "intensive" means that a university has only a handful of doctoral programs and few doctoral graduates per year.

UALR has 5 doctoral programs: Law (JD), Education (EdD), Applied Science (PhD), Bioinformatics (PhD), and Communication Sciences and Disorders (PhD).

UAF has 42 doctoral programs, covering almost every discipline (click my name).

RazorbackDem:

UALR does not have a medical school (neither does UAF).

UAMS has a medical school, a pharmacy school, a nursing school, and many other health-related programs.

UAMS and UALR each have their own chancellors and are completely separate campuses, geographically and administratively.

I think that public universities should shift resources from NCAA athletics to recreational and intramural sports and fitness programs that allow and encourage every single student to participate.

We should encourage college students to get exercise and to develop healthy habits that will last a lifetime.

Instead, we now encourage them to get drunk and sit on their bottoms in football stadiums and basketball arenas.

Students should run and swim, not sit and watch.

The remaining money should be shifted to academics, especially in a state that is tied with West Virginia for having the lowest percentage of college-educated adults in the U.S.

"From here forward it would be best if you refered to the University as UA or the U of A"--Big Rubbery One

Oooohhhh. Sounds like a threat. Even though I haven't until now used the abbreviation "UAF" or referred to the school as "the University of Arkansas at Fayetteville" (and don't particularly give a damn one way or the other), Big Rubbery One's considerable rhetorical skills and adroit spelling (most likely a product of a UAF "flagship" education) have convinced me that I should. I'm not too concerned about what others consider to "be best," even when it regards such vital matters of statewide importance as how people commenting on a blog should refer to a minor state university.

back on point:

Houston flipped everyone off--you, me, everyone in the State, and the U of A was complicit in it. He got everythng he ever wanted. And so did his wife. They played us all for fools. And they won!

Hey, You! I mean, Hugh. What's the big idea?

Oh well...I'll just stick with the lower case.

Thank you, IABL1969, for getting back on topic...

All the complaining about the money being spent on athletics, well...that gets folks on campus...period.

Save your academia preaching for a suitable thread...I thought this thread was about dumbass Wally's opinion of dumbass White's handling of coaches...

And DUMP WALLY...

Wally was right this time. In his own wallywriting way he nailed the column. Might not be purty, might have to read through a few painful metaphors, might have to hold your nose and wade through some paragraphs and Wallyisms that gmakeyou want to cringe, but this time Wally actually saw the issue for what it was and got from point A to point B with a relevant, insightful column. Go Wally Go.

Sounds to me like Sugg needs to step in and get his house in order, lest he wind up with unclean hands for letting things spiral out of control on his watch (with due respect to his recent health situation). What we have here folks is a Razor-mess.
History will judge this period of university management in its entirety. If there are meddling micro-managers who are not wise stewards of the taxpayer dollar and are left to run amuck to the detriment of the university as a whole, certainly history's account will not be kind either to those meddling micro-managers or the president of the university.
Let's hope the new hire and some tighter reigns puts some shine back on things.
$10,000 for a desk? I really hope that isn't true. I find that almost as offensive than the Nutt payout...and in some ways even more so.
Ugh.

But it's a nice desk. The way I heard it is that desk had a genuine veneer, double coated to hear some folks tell it, and boy oh boy did it hold a shine. Some say it has locks on two file drawers. They just ain't giving those types of executive level desks away down at Sams.

Absolutely amazing. First Hall and the Nutt haters want him (Nutt) gone because he is only a mediocre coach and surely Arkansas will be able to attract someone better. Now those same people are mad because the Chancellor allowed him to go to another school in the same division of the SEC. Oh, and because they paid him to go.

Surely the new superior coach will be able to consistently beat "Ole Miss." Also surely Nutt would not have resigned had he not been offered the money. He could have stayed or been fired and would have received more money. Truly amazing.

Oh by the way, Go BEARS.

Ah, but Clavis, there is a difference between taking off the golden handcuffs and wishing him well (i.e. not requiring him to pay the $500,000 and then waving politely as he moves on to his new higher paying gig with a long term contract that would assuredly be viewed as him landing squarely on his feet) and taking off the handcuffs AND then stuffing the guys pockets full of $3+ million just because someone thinks he's a nice guy AND then wishing him the absolute best in going to coach a rival team...all under the thinly veiled (and insulting) guise of his not yet having already inked a deal for another(higher paying, longer-term) gig.
I can potentially see the rationale behind padding his landing so generously if he was going into the no-man's land of coaching obscurity without a single job prospect on the horizon. But there is little compelling reason to justify the absurd expenditure of $3million "just because."
He wasn't fired (that was made clear). He had another gig already lined up (that was also clear). Makes all the sense in the world not to penalize him the $500,000...but why give him a $3 million parting gift?
I suppose the University just didn't need it...but Nutt didn't either. That's why people are frustrated. You don't have to agree with it, but you should certainly be able to understand it.

Are you kidding me! Today's Wallyism was easily one of the top 5 most ridiculous columns he ever wrote, and brother, there is a long list of nominees for that honor!

Here's the skinny for those of you who are so eaten up with all this you can't see it as anyone outside of Arkansas sees it. The situation with the Razorback football program is so bad, that no way could Nutt correct it. It may well be worse in the short term (as in wins and losses) with him leaving, but in time, things will get better with Nutt gone, at least until those who have to bitch about something find a new target. UA would look even more the fool nationally than they do now having lost Nutt had they fired him since he was a winning coach. Best compromise: Nutt leaves but takes all the money he's due. UA tries to buy their way out of a terrible situation.

Is Wally unaware that there are four other coaches in the SEC who coached at other SEC schools? Probably.

I pity the poor soul the new AD finally gets to accept the job. Trust me, most of us will never have heard of the guy. I hope he's paid well. He'll deserve it.

The biggest scandal is how supine the sports media in Arkansas is to the University of Arkansas athletic program. It's not like this in other states...in Texas, when the Cowboys or the Longhorns or the Aggies screw up, the media isn't afraid to let the truth be told. In Arkansas, the sports media might as well be on the U of A payroll and wouldn't tell readers/listeners that the Emperor has no clothes even if the Emperor, to borrow a British saying, was standing there bollocks naked.

What will Houston say when some one at ole miss does this to him?

Click name or http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nACZJ5x_wBY

Personally, I think he will like that being done more than the one linked at my blue name.....

Friends. . . bloggers . . .Razorback fans,
Lend me your screens.

I post to bury the controversy surrounding Houston Nutt, not to praise him.

The victory of the Nutt-haters is complete. By fortuity or otherwise, the UA has in one fell stroke rid itself of a bumbling underachiever -- renowned for wasting talent -- and as a bonus we have undermined a conference opponent by foisting this pitiful excuse for a coach off on Ole Miss.

We know this because the Nutt-haters, who are honorable fans, have long maintained it. When we who supported Houston said the lack of passing attack was a function of the skills (not) available at quarterback and receiver, they rolled their eyes at our lack of objectivity. Shut up, they explained. The problem is Nutt's lack of offensive imagination and conservative adherence to running, mostly up the middle.

What joy awaits us all, then, as the Hogs merely place eight men in the box and kick Ole Miss tail time and again in the coming years.

Please, do not doubt that I believe the Nutt-haters are honorable fans. Their assurances should keep us all from worrying about what talent Nutt may inherit at Ole Miss. Remember, the man's ability to waste talent is unmatched in the NCAA. Above all, we need not worry about some transfer quarterback from Texas; Houston's "Broyles era" offense and inability to develop quarterbacks guarantees that Ole Miss QBs will never be better than they are on November 28, 2007 -- not even three four years from now.

I take comfort in the evaluations of Nutt-haters, honorable fans all, who have long told us that if Houston has a worse skill than game-day coaching, it is recruiting. The pathetic efforts that let players from Texarkana to Rogers escape to other schools will now be Ole Miss's problem.

Above all, the Nutt-haters are honorable enough to understand this: It makes no sense to measure the cost of making Nutt go away against the cost of any scenario under which Nutt could shake his head "no" and have the power to stay. If the highest priority was ridding Razorback football of the coaching blight that was Houston Nutt, then the only true baseline is the cost of firing him. Even a blind hog finds an acorn now and then -- it seems that had Dr. White chosen the wise course and done what the honorable Nutt-haters urged, the Foundation would have been out of hundreds of thousands of additional dollars. (How do you negotiate with a fired coach--tell him unless he cuts $500k off the termination fee you won't give him good references?)

(By the way, under Arkansas law non-compete clauses must be reasonable in geographic scope and time limitation. I haven't researched the point but a clause that basically says you can't compete at comparable schools below the Mason-Dixon line, from the Oklahoma border to the beaches of Florida, doesn't seem likely to be worth the paper it would been written on. Even one from covering from Baton Rouge to Tuscaloosa might be suspect.)

Yes, it is a glorious day for Nutt-haters -- far better than if Nutt had escaped to Texas A&M or Baylor where we could not be assured of capitalizing on his blithering idiocy.

And the Nutt-haters are honorable fans. As for me, on principle alone I could never cheer for a school nicknamed the Rebels. Besides, I am a life-long Hog fan, and like other Nutt supporters I will put this behind me in the excitement of a new era (just as Nolan's supporters did).

Now whether the Nutt-haters will be able to let go.....I don't know. But I know they are honorable fans.

I've had it with the Razorback-Industrial complex.

Yes, I've watched Friday's game and Monday's news conference. Good Riddence HDN and JFB.

Who else should be gone next:

UAF Head John White
Rick "The Voice of Fayetteville" Schaffer
KATV GM Dale Nicholson, his grandson, and KATV program director Farrister.

Oh, you mean there are more important things than the Hawgs? Yes, like turning Arkansas away from its lingering redneck image. These folks leaving Arkansas would be a good start.

But, TAP! Most of us here hate what Bush & Co. are doing; thus we are rebels! So it would be perfectly OK for you to root for the Rebels.

rebel:
-noun
1. a person who refuses allegiance to, resists, or rises in arms against the government or ruler of his or her country.

Wally's job is to report on sports - the good, the bad, and the ugly. His job is not to support any university, sports program, or administration. Schools already employ enough paid cheerleaders for their programs.

I applaud Wally for giving a more honest portrayal of the situation in Fayetteville. I used to think that the UA ath-uh-letic department faxed him talking points each day, given the rosy treatment he gave them. I applaud Wally for being more objective.

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'A night from hell'
Date: 12/4/2008
By: David Koon

Students who were present during what Jonesboro police have called a riot at that city's The Grove apartment complex on election night Nov. 4 say the event was a peaceful celebration until cops arrived, and insist that accounts of rock and bottle throwing and an assault on an officer are false or overblown. /more/

Crime Lab delay
Date: 12/4/2008
By: Arkansas Times Staff

Was the rape of a Marianna schoolteacher less important to the state than an assault on a Little Rock TV personality? "Couldn't be farther from the truth," state Crime Laboratory Director Kermit Brooks Channell II said Tuesday. /more/


Arkansas escaped
Date: 12/4/2008
By: Arkansas Times Staff

A decade or so ago, ambitious and well-connected chiselers sold gullible and/or greedy legislators on the idea that deregulation of electricity would be good for people. /more/

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