Arkansas Blog

I won't lose sleep over a particular woman - Hillary has millions and will be successful despite the past months. I do, however, wish that the Democratic Party would coalesce, not just to get Barak Obama elected in Nov, but also to slap the virtual fire out of every Democrat who continues to disrespect Hillary Clinton because she has the audacity to challenge their choice of candidates. She, "as a symbol of us all", has been treated by the media and other Democrats in a way that is not only unbelievable, but it is unacceptable. This should not be tolerated by anyone with road walking sense, and if someone doesn't get a grip, I think we will have shown that we just 'ain't the party we pretend to be'.

"I think we will have shown that we just 'ain't the party we pretend to be'."

"We" never were.

" . . . but also to slap the virtual fire out of every Democrat who continues to disrespect Hillary Clinton because she has the audacity to challenge their choice of candidates."

AMEN.
Some of the more radical Obamaists' attitude is worse than the worst right wing God fearing Republicans who have dominated the Rethuglican party for oh-so-long. Get a grip, people.

because the american people have so much experience with the Clintons, they are a "known" commodity, it is impossible to differentiate how much of the non-clinton vote is attributable to sexism, ageism, and distaste derived from that experience. (just as difficult is to quantify the pro-clinton vote between her historic gender's timing, pining for the 90's and/or bill, and the restoration/revenge factor against the Bush regimes)

after super tuesday, the Clintons, having fallen behind, calculated that the contingent of voters who would under no circumstances vote for a black person would be large enough to put them ahead over time. a miscalculation it now seems. but Bill and Hillary made statements construable as courting those voters, often in a hamhanded way.

but i cannot recall (pardon the pun) of any statements made by Barack or Michelle that could be construed as appeals to those voters who under no circumstances would ever vote for a woman.

and for a new twist on math (name/link)

Where you miss the boat, Muleboy, IMO, is in assuming that the Clinton's were "appealing" to racists when they pointed out that some Democrats won't vote for a black person. I've pointed that out many, many, many times and I hate racism very much and have no reason to think the Clintons don't hate it just as much. The goal is defeating McCain in Nov and to fail to point out the fact that some Democrats won't supprt Obama would be crazy and should never be automatically categorized as "appealing" to racists. Racists don't need anyone to "appeal" to them. They look at two people, note their color and that is the end of the story. If anyone thinks that any single voter turned against Obama because Hillary alerted them to the fact he is black, that is the epitome of naive.

By the same token, noting that some voters won't ever vote for a woman is not an "appeal" to those voters - it's stating a fact. When did stating facts become underhanded?

There is overt racism and sexism and there is the culture, the perception, the general experience and distaste for discrimination. This campaign has been unwittingly about both. When you see a white catholic priest talking ebonics and claiming Hillary believes she is 'entitled' to the nomination you see a man playing on the perception, the culture, the distaste for previous wrongs. Hillary is not a racist, she simply wanted their votes.

In Hillary's case it turns out, it was not Hillary who was offended by her treatment, it was her female supporters. Once again, this is not overt sexism so much as politics, but the final face is of the American Woman's real desire, need, cry, for a woman president and equality.

Like everyone else, they didnt' care so much for Hillary as the idea that she should be elected president even though her career is only 4 years in the senate longer than Obama.

There will be those who say, "Leave it to the first woman candidate to not shutup" and things like that but, they miss deep pain felt by women in America today.

Chapter Two: Wait until you see a black culture in the Whitehouse. It could be the best thing to happen to the racial divide in 200 years. The black culture will be exposed like never before. It should be quite an education for all of us.

the kindest interpretation/rationalization i've read, which does have merit, is that "those votes are out there and they are trying to win... what's wrong with that?" though it does beget the 'means/ends' questions.

the problem, as i see it, on many fronts, is the "mainstreaming" of various distasteful aspects of the american electorate. (sexism certainly has been, also militarism and unifying the church/christ with the state, etc.) ... many people will not display their biases publicly unless the enviroment enables them. (my opinion is that the "win at any cost" aspect should also be listed as one of the worst)

the "mlk/lbj", "If I'm going to get in one of these brother contests," he added,
"at least I should be entitled to an age allowance.", "jackson won 'em too", and "hard-working, white americans" statements had the effect, no matter how they were intended, of "mainstreaming" the race question/aspect.

for a national politician/leader, how you express ideas/assertions is very important
(as the last 7 years has demonstrated to the 10th power) which is one of the major reasons
why Obama impresses me so much.

Well, Fletch, THIS woman didn't think that Hillary "should" be elected. She's not "entitled" to the presidency, but she is entitled to a modicum of respect. I did think her being elected was a credible idea and still do. I also, however, don't think Obama "should" be elected - he also is not "entitled" to the election but is entitled to respect.

I never got excited that a "woman" might be president this time - I did get excited and still do - that McCain NOT get elected.

Too many people are assigning motives to both Hillary and those who voted for her that are probably dead wrong. Can't we take it at face value that those who vote for Obama think he is best for the job and those who voted for Hillary think she is best for the job - not that they happened by accident of birth, to be the right sex or color?

We can but, we have to stop talking about sex and race to do it.

You can't have it both ways. Either she was disrespected for her views, her campaign tactics, or because she was a woman. Personally, I believe both candidates have been treated well. Hillary was treated like the front runner, not like the woman. You can't have that both ways either. Hillary was the first to pull both the sex and the race card, one in her defense and the other in a veiled attack.

This is only about sex and race as it effects are perceptions and judgements. The campaign is really just politics as usual.

I'm talking about abominable treatment of a Democrat by other Democrats - and I'm not one who thinks it is rooted in sexism - never have believed that.

"...You can't have it both ways. Either she was disrespected for her views, her campaign tactics, or because she was a woman..."--fletch

Why can't it be both ways? A person can be lousy at their job and still be the subject of sexism. In fact, most 'isms' are usually intertwined in a whole bunch of other human stuff. There is so much sexism surrounding Hillary's career, I'm amazed that so many refuse to see it. It's not a subtle thing. And, of course, Hillary the candidate/Senator is guilty of a lot of stuff that doesn't have anything to do with sexism.

I guess it's easier to dismiss Hillary if you deny the sexist crap. If you think her political/personal failings are completely of her own making, rather than admit that our society treats bright, educated women thusly, it's a more livable view.

This primary has proven that sexism is much more tolerated than racism. I hope someday before I die that sexism is not tolerated as it is now. We all know that jokes about sex are tolerated more than jokes about race. It makes no sense to me. Neither should be tolerated by anyone.

"There is so much sexism surrounding Hillary's career, I'm amazed that so many refuse to see it."

That's why sexism continues. It is so accepted that people think nothing of it. It's just laughed off and ignored.

Maybe I'll take one more stab at it. Fletch.

I don't have a problem with people supporting Obama - I support him too. I don't have a problem with people disagreeing with Hillary's policies - I've disagreed with some of them too. I do have a problem with Democrats - liberal Democrats - so easily assigning the ugliest of motives to Hillary's every word or action - refusing to entertain the idea that she isn't a racist and she isn't hoping for an assassination in June. You can support Obama without hating Hillary. Also, you can hate Hillary without joining the rabid right in castigating her - if only because she is a fellow Democrat. I can even understand someone who doesn't admire Hillary wondering if she was "playing the race card" by using the word "white" or playing the "assassination" card by mentioning RFK's death to remind us campaining in June is not unheard of - but don't understand Democrats being the first to jump out there with these ugly charges. Why do you think Obama hasn't jumped up and made these same charges if he believed for a millisecond thy were true? Because he knows they are not true. But it seems every Obama supporter has determined that Hillary is an evil person and that's the end of the story.

The Clintons were not perfect when they had the WH, but you would think - reading the posts on this blog and reading BuzzFlash,TPM, etc., that every word the Republicans said about them was true and they totally failed the Democrat party and the people during their 8 fairly successful yrs in office.

I know it's politics and politics "ain't beanbag", but the complete unfairness of all this has me truly wondering where I fit in the political landscape.

Of course sexism is rampant in our society.. In general its much less defined or noted than racism, particularly racism against black Americans..

It's just hard to continuously stand up for someone to the point of voting for / promoting them.. when they don't genuinely stand up (lead with integrity) for others...

From the Monica thing... to supporting Pryor, to not standing up for Joycelynn, to that very strange male dominated religious "Fellowship" in DC.. all the way to baiting the knuckle draggers on Limbaugh..and much more. Even NARAL (not my favorite group, but a favorite cause) saw a better feminist or certainly someone worthy of promoting in a different candidate.

We have to fight sexism and all other thwarts on minorities where and whenever it rears its ugly head.. it's all one problem.. Best promote those who hedge/fence their politics/life in a much less gray manner, imo.

"I can even understand someone who doesn't admire Hillary wondering if she was "playing the race card" by using the word "white" or playing the "assassination" card by mentioning RFK's death to remind us campaining in June is not unheard of - but don't understand Democrats being the first to jump out there with these ugly charges. Why do you think Obama hasn't jumped up and made these same charges if he believed for a millisecond thy were true? Because "

Obama has been the ring leader. Are you kidding me? He said her simply mentioning RFK was "careless." He said her remarks about MLK and LBJ were "unfortunate." They were neither. He and his campaign have pushed the idea that her comments were racist and that she was referring to Obama being assassinated.

F--- Obama

That's okay, Eureka - it's okay to not support Hillary. That's not the problem.

When Michelle Obama was in AZ this week, hosting a fundraiser... just down the road from a fundraiser both Bush and McCain were hosting.. (BTW, Michelle had much much higher attendance and raised much more cash in McBush's own Republican dominated back yard on the same day).. a sobbing supporter asked her how she deals with the assassination meme... At my name is a post about the whole ordeal... it really puts things in perspective on so many levels.. and though sexism isn't specifically addressed, many of the best ways to handle the all encompassing problems are... It's really a good read.

You know, Liberal Dem, you'd get a lot more traction with your statements about people picking on Hillary if you didn't include things like "F--- Obama."

When you say F--- Obama, I say F--- that bitch Hillary, and then where are we? Where is the party? Where is the nation?

You hate me, I'm glad to hate you back. I just think it's pointless and mutually self-destructive for any two people, parties, nations, whatever.

Oh, is that the question? Yes, sexism and racism exist in our society. I didn't know that that was up for debate.

Hillary is a little too close to the elder Bush. She has a problem with the 'vision thing.' When it was Hillary v Obama she out of ammunition. It was go to the race card, the sex card, the old politics as usual, but now that it wasn't good enough to win then it is all societies fault. Sorry Ladies, this is just one more example of how and why this has been over for awhile.

She stayed with her war vote to look Presidential and remain in the center. She blew her substantial lead in money and name recognition with safe answers and positions until it was too late. She ran a very poor campaign. That is not societies fault. That is Hillary's fault.

Is there sexism and racism in society? Was this campaign between a black man and a woman? Who spoke to a new generation about a new politics and who pull the sex card and the race card?

"Who spoke to a new generation about a new politics and who pull the sex card and the race card?"--Fletch

Both Hillary and Obama offer a better future than any Republican. Both Hillary and Obama have played politics..at all its different levels. Both have criticized each other. I have no problem criticizing Hillary for the many things she's done that I don't approve of. I've never met nor heard of a politician who was without flaws. But sentences like the above paint Obama as something brand new/unsullied...as someone who's never dirtied his hands politically; and paint Hillary as a racist who uses sexism, rather than experiences it, for political gain. That's just biased bull shit. She ain't the devil and he ain't a saint...but both are gods compared to the Republican alternative!

I wish...never mind.

Sorry, Fletch, guess I'm a slow learner, but unlike you, I think I got it. Hillary Clinton is a shrew, a hack, a war monger, a liar, a ball buster, and a bigot. Does that about sum it up?

Got it! Thanks for the enlightenment.

Nope, none of those, as far as I know. Only a poor politician and a loser.

"You know, Liberal Dem, you'd get a lot more traction with your statements about people picking on Hillary if you didn't include things like "F--- Obama."

I'm not looking for traction moron. F--- Y-- too

"When you say F--- Obama, I say F--- that bitch Hillary, and then where are we? Where is the party? Where is the nation?"

You tell me. I'm finally to the point of F--- Obama because of people like you. You have attacked and trashed Hillary for months. Now it's my turn bitch. You can look forward to much more of it over the next few months. Let's see how you like being on the other side of the attacks.

I don't see many people who aren't white guys in CEO-type jobs. It doesn't matter too much whether they're black guys or white women. That's a little more noticeable in the case of women, though, since they're half the population.

Spending time dwelling on who won't vote for someone who isn't a white guy amounts to an argument for voting for the white guy. That's not necessarily bigoted, but it sure doesn't do much to get rid of racism or sexism. Just the opposite, I'd say.

What the hell are you talking about Arkansawyer?

Women are discriminated against more than any other group in the world and they make up half of it.

90% of black voters voting for a black candidate over a white candidate that has virtually the same views is nothing but racist. Racism was part of the results in KY and WV too, and was clearly a backlash to the racism by blacks.

They only way for racism to stop is for ALL races to stop it. Racism is never ok. Not when it is practiced by whites and not when it is practiced by blacks. Racism is wrong regardless which race is it directed towards.

If you don't think discrimination against people who aren't white is alive and unwell, you aren't paying attention.

Bias against blacks is still as prevalent as gender bias in this country, IMO. I actually think it is more prevalent and may cost us the election in Nov.

To me Hillary has been the object of a lot of sexism and discrimination - that's obvious - but I don't think it was because she is a woman - mostly it was because she was a Clinton and then (and this is the part I don't understand) Obama supporters seem to have decided that once he got ahead, if she didn't get out of the race, she was a monster. But, none of that cost her the nomination - not being a woman, being a Clinton, or the bashing. In fact, the bashing may have helped eventually, because I suspect that the backlash from the bashing she has taken is what has extended this campaign and given her new life. I think many people who would have gone ahead and voted for Obama since he already has the delegates, took offense at the unnecessary bashing and voted for her to show support.

I think she lost the nomination because she had the wrong strategy to begin with and Obama's early wins gave him momentum. Everyone likes a winner and he became instantly the frontrunner. For all their political prowess, the Clintons misread the tea leaves. Whether or not she would be the better candidate, they went about it wrong and let Obama out maneuver them in garnering delegate votes.

All that is history. Obama has the delegates and will be the nominee, but nothing that has happened within the campaigns justifies tolerating the bashing Hillary has taken. I love bashing - do it all the time for McSame, Bush, Cheney, Rove, etc. But I just question why some see it okay to bash a darn good Democratic candidate who may very well end up having been the choice of more Americans than anyone else in the race when this is all said and done. Some Democrats ended up hating Gore after 2000, and I will never understand why.

Supporting Obama, from the start or only from now on, does not require bashing of other Democrats, and all my remarks about the "Hillary bashing" would have been made for any of the Democratic candidates had they been treated in this way because I thought only Republicans ate their own.

Obama has lost my support. He often said that Hillary would say or do anything to get elected. As is usually the case, those making the accusation are guilty themselves. Obama did and said whatever it took to win the primary but he'll pay for that in November.