Arkansas Blog

Who is he kidding. There's nothing "private" about the Church of Christ. They demand you get up in front of the congregation and fess up, pour out every detail of your horrid life.

A late friend and minister would always say that church is not a religion, it's a disease.

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"They demand you get up in front of the congregation and fess up, pour out every detail of your horrid life."

During my tour of duty at Harding and growing up CofC I can say I've never seen anyone get up in front of the congregation and "Fess Up" or pour our every detail of their horrid life. What a ridiculous comment! Believe me when I say church would have been a lot more interesting if that had been the case.

I'm not exactly a CofC or Harding supporter at this point in my life but let's keep the facts straight.

FoodDude, I'll bet you saw plenty of people 'come forward' right after the 'invitation hymn' (just after the sermon) to 'confess their shortcomings and ask for forgiveness' for what pretty much everyone in the church either knew or soon found out they were up to- if it was a big enough deal for anyone to care.

It may not go down exactly like eLwood said, but his assertion is in the ballpark.

Not sure 'facts' is the right word. You didn't attend EVERY CoC.

After Harding disinvited that hateful Ann Coulter a few years back, I was proud of my alma mater. But I'm ashamed of whatever has happened that has driven a breath of fresh air like Mark Elrod out of the public arena. I am glad to say that ME plans to do some blogging for ArkansasBusiness.com from the Democratic National Convention.

Food Dude, thanks for keeping eLwood honest. If I were a betting woman, I'd make a sizable wager that he has never once attended a worship service in a Church of Christ. (Now, please stand while we sing 728B and remain standing while we are dismissed in prayer.)

True...I haven't attended every CofC but saying that the Repentee has to get up and confess to the crowd he had sex with the church secretary four times last week in the McDonalds parking lot is quite a stretch.

Is there any organization that isn't run amok with rumors...Especially in small town Arkansas? Is there any church that is any different? If so, point me that way!

Gwen....Why did they have to sing all four verses each time while you're chomping at the bit to get outta there?

>>Food Dude, thanks for keeping eLwood honest.<<

I briefly dated a very educated woman in Faytteville once upon a time back in the 80s who was a psychologist and a former CoC member. She married early and her hubby dragged her to the CoC ceremonies each Sun. After she escaped that stuff and completed her Ph.d in counseling-psychology she began a recovery group for recovering former CoC members.

My ex-wife told me about most of the CoC goings on. She was from Missouri. She was taken into those depths by a very controlling hubby during the 1960s. To her credit she shot a CoC preacher who came to her home when she was 18 using his self righteous authority to sniff around for some nookie. She only shot him through the knee and he was damn lucky. Ex-wifey was very good with firearms. She was certified fire arms instructor at 18. The preacher man, according to ex-wifey was quietly moved away from the town by a CoC sheriffs office. As a devoted CoC she was very willing to go to head of the church and tell of her shooting, and the preacher's. The church didn't think it was such a good idea.

Most of you young CoC have likely never heard of the famous case when a woman who left the CoC formally asked that her sexual past never be discussed publicly in the church as was the practice.
The church, in Missouri I recall, did not honor her request and openly discussed her personal sex life.
The woman sued and won. Sixty Minutes did two episodes on it.

There is no need to lie about religions or churches. Their stories are bizarre enough.
Only a church-religion would try to convince the faithful that voting for Bush was a vote for god.
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Kaziah Hancock and Cindy Stewart sued leaders of a polygamous church for failing to make good on promises they'd get land, some money back and a face-to-face visit with Jesus. The promises were made in return for their contributions to The True and Living Church of Jesus Christ of Saints of The Last Days.

So let me get this straight: It's okay to censure Ann Coulter, but not the left-leaning ME?

Being "proud" of an institution for censuring anything says a lot about where you're coming from.

Oh shit Max. You done posted a thread that opens the luny asylum, otherwise known as CoC.

Too bad you can't sue if you don't get to heaven.

This C of C thread is tame compared to threads a month or so ago about the other C word church. What's the deal?

I should know better than to post anything here, even a word of support for Mark Elrod. And this will be the last, certainly on this subject. But for City Watch's sake, I'll answer his question: Conservative voices aplenty speak at Harding. I recently attended and enjoyed the dinner at which Steve Forbes spoke -- saw Mark Elrod there, in fact. But I didn't and don't think Ann Coulter should be invited to spew her virulent strain of hatefulness on the Harding campus. I have read ME's blog on a semi-regular basis for a couple of years, and I find it to be a gentle, thoughtful, amusing read in world that is already ugly enough.

Something else to consider is that CoC is a rather loosely organized denomination. Individual churches make many decisions on their own and do not answer to a governing body for them. So if some churches thought it was a good idea to have "open mike confessionals", no one is going to stop them. Likewise, if one congregation decides to stop the practice, that's OK.

My best friend is CoC and her family recently moved churches. Her Mom, afraid of what the "original" church members would think, went to services at both because she didn't want the "original" folk to think she wasn't going to church. And she couldn't say "well, we're going to the one near where we live now" because it's thought of as "too liberal" by folks in the surrounding area. The "new" church has such outrageous things as a food pantry, day care and other outreach efforts to be more inclusive with their community.

Mark Elrod: Based on your comment, "I've grown tired with dealing with members of both communities who seem to view the world in black and white terms and think of all discussions as zero-sum games," you've already discovered that some people carry a two-valued orientation to reality which they impose upon all of their evaluations, to wit, "There is only right and wrong. What I perceive/believe is right. Therefore, if what you perceive/believe doesn't agree with what I perceive/believe, you must, perforce, be wrong." As you've observed, to these, everything is black or white; there are no shades of gray.

I've never found a person with this orientation to be interested in discussion. Instead, they are determined to criticize, condemn, and deride any position that does not agree with theirs. Thus, they seldom, if ever, consider another point of view. Rather, they cite their position and denigrate or condemn you for not acquiescing to it and confessing how wrong you are/were.

I've found myself considered a liberal, when I view myself as at least moderate, if not conservative, simply because I'm willing to grant the other party as much right to his view as I claim for myself.

I think it is fairly safe to say that NO ONE is right all the time. Therefore, I have to conclude on any given occasion that this might be one of the times when I am not right. And it seems reasonable to me for the other person to acknowledge the same possibility.

So "liberal" and "conservative" may not just be positions on specific issues, but the degree to which someone is willing to grant another person the right of free thought, critical thinking, and free speech. I have no patience for the person who refuses to grant me the same right he demands for himself.

Personally, I do not agree with the Church of Christ on certain doctrinal positions. But I have heard their citation of evidence and can understand how they arrived at those positions. I don't agree with their interpretations, but I respect their right to their interpretations just as I expect them to respect my right to mine. On those grounds, we can discuss. Without those grounds, there's not likely much discussion to take place, only denigration, denouncement, and name-calling.

It distresses me no little that some of the contributors to these blogs who carve out the moral, political, intellectual high-ground for themselves are the most virulent in their denunciation and name-calling toward others who hold different views, sometimes even resorting to vulgar terminology or profanities. I'm reminded of Peter who finally cursed when he was accused of being one of Jesus' disciples. When he resorted to profanity, the little servant girl left him alone, evidently concluding, "Well, I guess he's NOT a follower of Jesus after all." I'm a bit taken aback by those who make their Christian point of view punctuated with epithets and profanity.

Making your blog private will not, I predict, prevent your being the target of people with a two-valued orientation to reality, nor will it prevent those same people from accusing you to your employer and/or your church if they assume that they thereby can do you harm. To them, anything or anyone who does not agree in every particular with them is worthy of total and absolute destruction.

In the political arena, this typically comes out as "If you're not patriotic in the terms I prescribe, then you're a traitor." So if your patriotism doesn't agree with my definition of patriotism, then yours has to be wrong. And if it is wrong, it must be traitorous, as there is only right and wrong, only patriots and traitors. Seems to me George W. Bush said something to this effect prior to his unprovoked invasion of a sovereign nation, "If you're not with us, you're against us."

Doesn't leave much room for dissent on patriotic grounds. But it seems to me that those who dissented against a certain English king were fairly patriotic, perhaps even extremely so. But they weren't very loyal. At least not to that king and his policies.

So I wish you well in the privatization of your blog. May it enjoy a long life in the cause of free speech.

Grew up CoC myself, left in High School when they told me I couldnt attend my Sr. Prom.... They believe you can lose your salvation if you continue to screw up after being saved (the 1st time) so coming forward (going forward) in church is a way to "get back on track" - you dont have to say everything you did (sin)... You simply say you have sinned...I always wondered why everyone in the church didnt come forward each week cause everyone sins all the time...... Got to tell this joke now - Do you know why CoC never screw standing up? Dont want anyone to think they are dancing!!!!! Thats right, you cant dance (or have music in the church)... A CoC preacher told me one time that dancing is a sin... He said, "If someone is dancing with your wife at a party and you take away the music all you have is some man rubbin all over your wife".... Obama said, "Aint that the point" - cause your rubbin on his wife at the same time he is rubbing...- well anyway, this is American, they can believe what they want, right? Some of the best, most good hearted people I have ever known are CoC...

I am sure there will be the inevitable remarks about the Church and Christians on here....basically reinforcing Mr. Elrod's rather statement..." I've grown tired with dealing with members of both communities who seem to view the world in black and white terms and think of all discussions as zero-sum games."

This is a man who seems to love God. He is facing the delima that a lot of Christians face...which is this: Do I vote the way I feel God is leading me, or do I vote the way the Church wants. Do I make my peace with God, or do I suffer the ridicule of my fellow church members.

Do I individuate or do I do herd behavior?

Bingo, eL!

eLwood...that was what I was trying to say.

If academic freedom were ever alive on this campus, it has surely died now. The administration should be ashamed of their institution.

eLwood...that was what I was trying to say.<<

I was simply secularizing it for you. Everyone, yellow, red, black and grey, Hindu, Catholic, atheist, agnostic, Satanic, and Voo-doo sooner or later enters into the angst of becoming self. Only the dull and mentally handicapped don't encounter such dilemmas.

"Bingo, eL!"
Uranian stuff you know.

Free speech doesn't come with a guarantee of being free from criticism.