Arkansas Blog

Low participation is a problem, but a more serious one is the accuracy of the information. CLICK.

I'm with you, Max. I've said since Day One that these "rankings" were pure nonsense. Harvard, Yale, Princeton, Amherst (and so nonsensically on and on) are better schools than say, Oklahoma State, simply because of SAT scores (what did Harvard have to do with a high school student's SAT score?), peer reputation, selectivity, and alumni giving? A reliable scientific study? One that examines faculty performance? Hardly. Only fools swallow this hogwash.

Rankings-Smankings! With what we've learned about UCA in the last month coupled with the 8 years of secrecy lessons from Cheney-Bush, no wonder colleges are zipping their lips. I feel pretty sure hanky panky isn't confined to the UCA campus. The truth only hurts the guilty, secrets can hurt everyone.

it is similar to the paid rankings of the top female execs in Little Rock.

Nobody believes that stuff anymore. But hey, the Times still publishes its best of edition.

Pot, meet kettle.

You can go to any college and succeed. Go to class, pay attention, do your assignments. The rest of it is just who you know. And that is where those big dog U's make a difference. When your dorm buddy's dad owns, runs or finances big, important stuff you've got your in.

Hogwash! The only reasons schools like Harvard are perennially ahead are because of the brilliance of their professors, brilliance of their students, selectivity, contributions to scientific journals, retention rates, general impact on the world, better professors, nobel laureates, billions of dollars in endowment, ability to develop the world's next intellectuals/scientists/movers and shakers....

Look, everyone knows that people can be bright and go anywhere, and that many, many, schools have bright professors, and people can succeed anywhere.... but come on... Sure. Schools that are ranked closely together are too close to call, but the difference between schools like Harvard and Idaho State is obvious.

As for the rankings, I think it's a bitter-sweet type thing. Sometimes people get too fixated on them, and sometimes it one-dimensionalizes colleges that are trying to improve. But that's a disclaimer anyone who uses any type of ranking should heed.

Sure, US News has a ranking for everything now, but the only ones that anyone REALLY pays attention to are the national universities ranking and liberal arts ranking. The "best college in the mid south" or whatever are usually bogus.

Did Hendrix participate?

All I care about colleges is that on Saturday I'll be leaving from my home in Jonesboro and heading over to Fayetteville to see Jed Clampit play at Maxine's. I'll have my two kids in tow. Both over 21 (sigh). Should be a good weekend.

Quote: Did Hendrix participate?

Not according to a blog entry from this time last year by their president. http://www.hendrix.edu/president/blogpost.aspx?id=12964&blogid=464

"The only reasons schools like Harvard are perennially ahead are because of the brilliance of their professors, brilliance of their students, selectivity, contributions to scientific journals, retention rates, general impact on the world, better professors, nobel laureates, billions of dollars in endowment, ability to develop the world's next intellectuals/scientists/movers and shakers...."

Brilliance of their professors: Does brilliance equate to superior teaching?

Better professors: Really? Define "better."

Brilliance of students: What role did Harvard play in making its students brilliant?

Retention rates: No surprise, since the students are brilliant (and often wealthy), which is why they were "selected" in the first place.

General impact on world: As in Yale and Bush? Harvard and Alberto Gonzales? Princeton and Donald Rumsfeld?

Ability to develop the world's next intellectuals/scientists: Would Harvard, Yale, or Princeton have provided a better education for Jonas Salk than did City College of New York?

The real questions are do the prestigious, highly ranked schools actually provide a better education than schools of lesser repute? And what IS a "better" education?

I wonder what percentage of the students entering Harvard take remedial English and Math

"Does brilliance equate to superior teaching?"

Does brilliance equate to terrible teaching? No. It's a mixed bag, just like anywhere else. But I would argue that, yes, on average, intelligence and better teaching are more likely to occur together. Further, schools like Harvard have HUGE endowments, which means they can hire the best professors and best communicators, etc.

And another point to consider is this: schools like Harvard and Idaho State operate on completely different levels. A student at Idaho State (sorry to rag on this random school) is likely to think that teachers at Harvard are harder, simply because the content of the class is more difficult than he or she could handle. Harder teacher usually equals worse teacher in a student's mind. E.g., a professor who skips quickly through the lessons will be perceived as "poor" teaching by some, but for others it will be a good, brisk pace. That difference in levels spawns a completely different environment: a bright student at a so-so school is likely to be a stand-out beacon; at Harvard, he or she will be constantly challenged and pushed by similarly intelligent students and faculty. One environment breeds a research institution (where the frontiers of knowledge are explored), the other less so.

"Brilliance of students: What role did Harvard play in making its students brilliant?"
Similarly, what role did grade school play in making a student brilliant? Harvard will cultivate brilliant minds, just like good public/private schools will. No one gives the students his or her brilliance. Harvard will cultivate bright minds better than 3rd tier colleges.

"General impact on world: As in Yale and Bush? Harvard and Alberto Gonzales? Princeton and Donald Rumsfeld?"

That's an easy game to play. How about Gore, Clinton, or Obama? Or check out the Nobel laureates web page on Wikipedia and see how many trace to upper ranked colleges vs. lower ranked. Or check out who are the writers behind the Daily Show, the Office, or other high profile items. They come from a wide array of schools, but disproportionately more come from higher ranked schools. Why? Well, they're smart to begin with, and quite probably, their minds were further cultivated and challenged at more rigorous schools.

"Ability to develop the world's next intellectuals/scientists: Would Harvard, Yale, or Princeton have provided a better education for Jonas Salk than did City College of New York?"

Is this an argument? A what if? Should I ask the inverse for all those who came from Ivy Leagues?.....how would their career trajectories been different if they went to City College of New York?

"The real questions are do the prestigious, highly ranked schools actually provide a better education than schools of lesser repute? And what IS a "better" education? "

I agree: it's variable from person to person. "Better schools" (in these rankings) are those that are good at cultivating bright minds. If you made a 35 on your ACT, Hendrix is a better place to go than a community college or 3rd tier college. Similarly, if you made an 15 on your ACT, you shouldn't consider going to Hendrix---frankly, it would be more than you could handle.

BTW, In Arkansas, U of A made 1st tier in national universities for the 2nd or 3rd year in a row. It used to be in the 3rd tier. Hendrix and Lyon made 1st tier too, though for Liberal Arts. The "National Universities" ranking and "Liberal Arts College" ranking are the main ones people pay attention to.

The biggest advantages the Harvards and Yales have are the endowments and brand recognition. These allow them to hire and pay the 'stars' of the various disciplines and buy good equipment, which in turn feed the endowments and enhance brand recognition. It also brings in loads of foundation and/or research money which do the same thing. For better or worse, Higher Ed. has become an industry where making money is almost as important as educating kids (on some campuses, more so.).

There's no doubt Harvard looks better on a resume than Idaho State. But which is a better prospective employee, a moron from an Ivy League school (I know a couple) or a smart guy from Idaho State? I think the definition of 'better' or 'good' should come from the success of the students and whether they are able to achieve their goals be it a Saturday Night Live writer or a nurse at Baptist here in Little Rock.

Who's a bigger success, a single mom that gets a nursing degree at UALR/Harding and is able to comfortably support her family or a legacy at Princeton that gets an MBA and is shuffled to a hedge fund run by Dad's golfing buddy? Who got a better education? Who will value their degree more? Who's a bigger success? Heck, who's to say?

I just don't subscribe to the 'most expensive and exclusive and therefore better' argument. I've seen 'average' or what some would call a 'poor' education change too many lives for the better.

Also, I've found little correlation between 'brilliance' and 'good teaching.' They are mutually exclusive. They can go together, but don't just as often as they do. This can be a reason your researchers are never in the classroom.

JD, I know for a fact you are 100% wrong when you say, "...if you made an 15 on your ACT, you shouldn't consider going to Hendrix---frankly, it would be more than you could handle."

"You can go to any college and succeed. Go to class, pay attention, do your assignments..." is spot-on.

Just my rambling $.02 worth.

Please comment, Theodosius (I think- the faculty member in the UA system that frequently posts). I'd be interested in what you have to say.

Isn't there a simple, quantifiable way to measure a college/university?
Hey this is MoneyNation, not culture. America is an economy,
not a culture.
why not just measure how much money
the graduates had before entering and how much they have 7 years
after graduation.
How soon could grads pay off loans and get a good cash
flow going.

This way, all the subjective, qualitative foo-foo can be
eliminated.
Who needs exposure to the arts, visiting distinguished professors,
exchange programs, great performances, etc? Foo-foo I say.

Mabye create a Mo-Money U.
"We put cash in yo pocket bufor Hendrix does."

"The Princeton Payout is Faster and Larger.Apply today."

OOPS! I think Max already did the above, right here on the AT pages,
for Arkansas colleges and the University.
.

"BTW, In Arkansas, U of A made 1st tier in national universities for the 2nd or 3rd year in a row. It used to be in the 3rd tier."

I wonder if this progress (assuming one buys into a magazine's school rankings) has anything to do with those despicable Waltons and the more than $300 million they've contributed to the UA's $1.2 billion endowment? If so, it would give credence to the notion that Harvard's huge endowment allows it to buy the best (whatever that is) professors and the best (whatever that is) communicators.

Let's speculate, shall we? Yes, yes, who are the big monied donor's behind Hendrix and Lyon's rise too?

Having graduated from the University twice, a graduate degree from the University of Virginia, and attended post graduate summer professional classes at the Harvard GSD, I can tell you there may be some brilliant teachers, but that doesn't mean you will get in their classes. But schools like Harvard and UVA have advantages in academic resources.

For example, Boston has a huge advantage. The following are colleges in metropolitan Boston
* Babson College Babson Park
* Bentley College Waltham
* Berklee College of Music Boston
* Boston Architectural Center Boston
* Boston College Chestnut Hill
* Boston Conservatory, The Boston
* Boston Theological Institute, The Newton Centre
* Boston University Boston
* Brandeis University Waltham
* Bunker Hill Community College Boston
* Cambridge College Cambridge
* Curry College Milton
* Eastern Nazarene College Quincy
* Emerson College Boston
* Emmanuel College Boston
* Endicott College Beverly
* Fisher College Boston
* Franklin W. Olin College of Engineering Needham
* Gordon College Wenham
* Gordon-Conwell Theological Seminary South Hamilton
* Harvard Business School Boston
* Harvard University Cambridge
* Hellenic College Brookline
* Lasell College Newton
* Lesley College Cambridge
* Longy School of Music Cambridge
* MIT Cambridge
* Massachusetts College of Art Boston
* Massachusetts College of Pharmacy
and Allied Health Sciences Boston
* Merrimack College North Andover
* Mount Ida College Newton
* New England College of Optometry Boston
* New England Conservatory of Music Boston
* New England School of Law Boston
* Northeastern University Boston
* Pine Manor College Chestnut Hill
* Radcliffe College Cambridge
* Regis College Weston
* Roxbury Community College Roxbury Crossing
* Salem State College Salem
* School of the Museum of Fine Arts Boston
* Simmons College Boston
* Stonehill College Easton
* Suffolk University Boston
* Suffolk University Law School Boston
* Tufts University Medford
* University of Massachusetts Amherst
* Wellesley College Wellesley
* Wentworth Institute of Technology Boston
* Wheaton College Norton
* Wheelock College Boston
Many schools have cooperative or exchange programs with other institutions, which allow their students to take courses which they do not offer themselves. But most importantly each one of these colleges has libraries and other scholastic resources available to the students of all the colleges. This places Harvard, Amherst, Wellesley, Tufts, MIT, Radcliffe, etc's location at the center of an unbelievable cornucopia of scholastic resources.

Add in the funds to hire the instructors versed in the current hot movements in the arts and sciences then sprinkle the serendiptious cosmopolitan advantages of this center. I remember walking to dinner with a fellow classmate in the summer course and going to see the first Batman movie in Harvard Square. Between us, in the course of two and a half hours on the walk, at dinner and in line for the movie, we identified fluent conversations in seven different languages and had a chance to practice the three language skills thetwo of us had acquired in college and the service. (In my twenty-eight years of professional practice in Oklahoma, Texas, Louisiana, Florida and Arkansas I have had the chance to use my language skills, twice. {Other than translating a menu}).

It's the energizing an inspiring academic environment that make Harvard and the Boston area such a highly rated center of higher education. They do graduate "C-" partying students also, but the "C-" students benefit from the imprimature of a Harvard or MIT etc. degree and the networking knowledge. Just look at our Harvard MBA President, who probably didn't over indulge in the advantage of the academic atmosphere, but did of the institution's rep.

Having graduated from the University twice, a graduate degree from the University of Virginia, and attended post graduate summer professional classes at the Harvard GSD, I can tell you there may be some brilliant teachers, but that doesn't mean you will get in their classes. But schools like Harvard and UVA have advantages in academic resources.

For example, Boston has a huge advantage. The following are colleges in metropolitan Boston
* Babson College Babson Park
* Bentley College Waltham
* Berklee College of Music Boston
* Boston Architectural Center Boston
* Boston College Chestnut Hill
* Boston Conservatory, The Boston
* Boston Theological Institute, The Newton Centre
* Boston University Boston
* Brandeis University Waltham
* Bunker Hill Community College Boston
* Cambridge College Cambridge
* Curry College Milton
* Eastern Nazarene College Quincy
* Emerson College Boston
* Emmanuel College Boston
* Endicott College Beverly
* Fisher College Boston
* Franklin W. Olin College of Engineering Needham
* Gordon College Wenham
* Gordon-Conwell Theological Seminary South Hamilton
* Harvard Business School Boston
* Harvard University Cambridge
* Hellenic College Brookline
* Lasell College Newton
* Lesley College Cambridge
* Longy School of Music Cambridge
* MIT Cambridge
* Massachusetts College of Art Boston
* Massachusetts College of Pharmacy
and Allied Health Sciences Boston
* Merrimack College North Andover
* Mount Ida College Newton
* New England College of Optometry Boston
* New England Conservatory of Music Boston
* New England School of Law Boston
* Northeastern University Boston
* Pine Manor College Chestnut Hill
* Radcliffe College Cambridge
* Regis College Weston
* Roxbury Community College Roxbury Crossing
* Salem State College Salem
* School of the Museum of Fine Arts Boston
* Simmons College Boston
* Stonehill College Easton
* Suffolk University Boston
* Suffolk University Law School Boston
* Tufts University Medford
* University of Massachusetts Amherst
* Wellesley College Wellesley
* Wentworth Institute of Technology Boston
* Wheaton College Norton
* Wheelock College Boston
Many schools have cooperative or exchange programs with other institutions, which allow their students to take courses which they do not offer themselves. But most importantly each one of these colleges has libraries and other scholastic resources available to the students of all the colleges. This places Harvard, Amherst, Wellesley, Tufts, MIT, Radcliffe, etc's location at the center of an unbelievable cornucopia of scholastic resources.

Add in the funds to hire the instructors versed in the current hot movements in the arts and sciences then sprinkle the serendiptious cosmopolitan advantages of this center. I remember walking to dinner with a fellow classmate in the summer course and going to see the first Batman movie in Harvard Square. Between us, in the course of two and a half hours on the walk, at dinner and in line for the movie, we identified fluent conversations in seven different languages and had a chance to practice the three language skills thetwo of us had acquired in college and the service. (In my twenty-eight years of professional practice in Oklahoma, Texas, Louisiana, Florida and Arkansas I have had the chance to use my language skills, twice. {Other than translating a menu}).

It's the energizing an inspiring academic environment that make Harvard and the Boston area such a highly rated center of higher education. They do graduate "C-" partying students also, but the "C-" students benefit from the imprimature of a Harvard or MIT etc. degree and the networking knowledge. Just look at our Harvard MBA President, who probably didn't over indulge in the advantage of the academic atmosphere, but did of the institution's rep.

My oldest child graduated from UCA with top honors, went on to graduate school and ultimately received her doctorate from UNC. She taught classes at Duke and got a job teaching at the college level.
My point? At this time in her life she is debt free. (Scholarships). Sure, I wish she had gone to Harvard or Yale, but it really does not matter, except that she could have asked for and got more money.
Same for my other kids, all college graduates. All very productive.
I think I agree with Max - U.S. News and World Reports college evaluation is pretty much BS.

Thanks kizzy for verifying what I proposed. Mo-Money Univ. Thats the rating system.

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