Arkansas Blog

Jesus!......no wait, God dammit.....no, uh,........hell fire! no,.....um, shit????

Looks like a fine group to me! I don't understand why people don't think there is room in this world for everyone? I'm getting jiggy with Christmas every bit as much as Pastor Rick Saddleback mofo. Creches don't scare me none, I just wish every brand of religion and stamp collector's club had a display in front of every courthouse in America.

I know this much.....if the Sandemanians, or Jansenists or the Anthroposophists or any Eastern Orthodox Christians, or just plain ole Buddhists staked out some ground and put up a display, you can bet Dimmy Altes would be introducing a bill outlawing all churchy displays on public property.

They're 100% for this creche stuff cause only one brand gets to put on a show. Let some religious group show up with a bunch of shaved goats with red dots painted between their eyes and you'd hear the screeching of Christan tires on the pavement. I say Merry whatever the hell you believe!

There seems to be a glut of available billboards up and down the interstates. Mortally offending fatigued christians every 10 miles or so might help keep them awake.

Is that 12 guys and a woman?

Brrrrr. If that bunch got out yesterday to tout a billboard, they believe in more than I believe in.

Bugeyed, I think it's eleven guys and one woman, unless I need my glasses changed again. But it does seem to be an "odd" number in some respects, doesn't it? Still, if twelve folks showed up in 20-something degree weather, thinking about disciples is probably a little out-of-kilter for the situation. And that's Easter anyway, isn't it?
Saaay, I wonder if the photographer male or female? Or did he set his camera and run to get into the picture?

I do like the "Reason's Greetings" sentiment noted in the story.

Makes perfect sense when you realize that of the 12 disciples pictured at the last supper, the one whom Jesus loved the most, even kissed on the lips, was Mary Magdalene.

Hey, now there's something we can agree on: Freedom From Religion (as well as "of" religion).

If we Christians can put a creche on the court house--or state house--lawn, then Jews should be allowed to put up a menorah, and the Muslims Muhammad riding on a camel, and the Buddhists a fat-boy statue, and the Pascagoulians a shrimp or a crab or whatever they want.

If it's public property, then the public ought to be able to use it. And the government shouldn't play favorites and should keep its nose out of it.

So I say, If the "Freedom From Religion" group wants to put up a respectful display, let them put up a respectful display. But make it positive. "There is no God" is not a positive message. That's argumentative. I've never seen a Christian (Christmas) display with the words, "There is a God."

Don't tell us what you don't believe in; we already know that. Tell us what you DO believe in.

If you don't believe in "Peace on earth and good will toward men," then tell us you believe in "Warfare on earth and hatred toward men."

What are the tenets of your religion? What are your slogans? What is your message to appeal to others to join you?

Tell us what you're for. We know what you're against.

It has been a while since the government made CHRISTMAS a Federal holiday. Perhaps it is time for the government to step aside on holidays in general.

I am not black, so I do not celebrate MLK day or black history month. I find the entire thing quite racist and offensive. Most blacks don't celebrate in any way, shape, or form; so we should end that as a national holiday.

Everyone is free to celebrate a holiday in general how ever they wish in the month of December. But, it is not up to the government to tell us what the holiday is. Therefore, I want my damned mail delivered on the 25th. I want packages, etc delivered to my home on July 4th. I want to be able to go out to eat on what has been known as "thanksgiving".

The only way to end this madness is to end the holiday as government sanctioned all together.

WHY in the hell are there lights on the state capitol? I guess we the tax payers have to pay the electricity bill for the over time destruction of our environment?

Screw it. I bet these same people who want to aboloish Christmas as it has been known since...well a long time ago also want to take the day off on December 25. So end the whole thing. You want to take a day off to spend with your family, do so as an unpaid leave, or use up a vacation day for it...

These folks are complete and utter fools. There is nothing about Christmas that should offend them..no one is forcing them to go to mid-night mass. No one is forcing them to purchase a holiday tree or a menorah. But THEY want to impede on how other people celebrate. THEY want to impede on how other (85% to be exact) celebrate their holiday season. They have no belief system...they have nothing to stand on. They are only trying to make a point. And that is fine. No one is going to stop me from going to Salvation Army to feed the hungry. No one is going to stop me from buying presents for the lower-socio economic children during December. No one is going to stop me from taking December 25 off to spend time with my family during what is a very special time of year.

But, as far as I am concerned the government should step out on all of this. Abolish all federal holidays. The conflict just is not worth it.

Gee MAK....whose yer daddy? chasv or Ebenezer Scrooge?

"But, as far as I am concerned the government should step out on all of this. Abolish all federal holidays. The conflict just is not worth it."

A Christmas POST post card from Mary Ann...Ebenezer Scrooge, Ho! Ho! Ho! Melinda!

Joy to the world, the Lord is come!
Let earth receive her King;
Let every heart prepare Him room,
And Heaven and nature sing,
And Heaven and nature sing,
And Heaven, and Heaven, and nature sing.

Joy to the earth, the Savior reigns!
Let men their songs employ;
While fields and floods, rocks, hills and plains
Repeat the sounding joy,
Repeat the sounding joy,
Repeat, repeat, the sounding joy.

No more let sins and sorrows grow,
Nor thorns infest the ground;
He comes to make His blessings flow
Far as the curse is found,
Far as the curse is found,
Far as, far as, the curse is found.

He rules the world with truth and grace,
And makes the nations prove
The glories of His righteousness,
And wonders of His love,
And wonders of His love,
And wonders, wonders, of His love.

Skypilot -- you're using "there is no god" as a strawman for your rant. The signs in IL and WI said:

"At this season of the Winter Solstice, may reason prevail. There are no gods, no devils, no angels, no heaven or hell. There is only our natural world. Religion is but myth and superstition that hardens hearts and enslaves minds."

When you demand that they express what they believe "in", I think it's already in that sign. "may reason prevail" is plenty positive. The part about gods, devils, angels, heaven, hell -- those are statements of fact (prove me wrong), just as "there are no unicorns, no elves, no flying spaghetti monsters" is a statement of fact. Dogma such as gods, devils, heaven, and especially eternal firey damnation to a hell, are all around us, and a very sound argument can be made that belief in dogma is very bad for us. Why pursue scientific explanations for anything when you've got dogma that already explains it?

Nevertheless, I hope you all have a happy holiday season, no matter what you believe in, or don't believe in.

11 it is. Sort of resembles a small Star Trek convention.

Nice response from Fort Smith!

"Of all the dispositions and habits which lead to political prosperity, religion and morality are indispensable supports. And let us with caution indulge the supposition that morality can be maintained without religion. Whatever may be conceded to the influence of refined education. reason and experience both forbid us to expect that national morality can prevail in exclusion of religious principle."---G. Washington

These guys can put up all the billboards they want. I just think it is funny and so hypocritical (but they are Liberals which does not exist without hypocrisy) that they are basically "fighting" a holiday that I bet they utilize. I am sure they would throw a stink if their business kept them at work this Thursday. And I find it funny that they are intentionally offending people...most people regarding a holiday that's whole premise is "peace on earth". So good for them....they are not and have not been impeded upon, but they are dedicated to impeding on others.

I think it's racist to presume that only blacks can "celebrate" Dr. Martin Luther King Day. I'm white and I honor the day. My life has been so enriched and so blessed by my friendships with people of different races - folks I wouldn't have been allowed to associate with - or marry - just a few decades ago. I can't imagine that my life would be as great as it is if I were barred from those friendships.

What on earth are you talking about MAK? How is "beware of dogma" so offensive? Is it more offensive than "you're eternally damned to hell if you don't believe my dogma?"

I hardly look at the billboards but I might have to take a little trip and check this one out.
I <3 atheists.

The most satisfying news of the day is the report that Rick Warren has removed the anti-gay statements from his website. Yet another holy bully/coward has to retreat from his public promotion of hatred and intolerance.

YAY!

Not necessarily MAK, a lot of places pay double time for working on Christmas. YEE HAWW.
Christians and Atheist have been having a billboards on the bus war for quite a while. Click the name.

"....they are not and have not been impeded upon, but they are dedicated to impeding on others."

I agree, MAK. They're control freaks, pure and simple. Screw the silly bastards.

Y'all layoff MAK.

He's just indulging in the standard reactionary ideologue's only method of winning a debate. Don't listen and state what you believe the opponent means. That way it's easy for the tread-worn ideological arguments to prevail.

It's Rovian legacy along with "talkers."

Don't these ignorant unpatriotic idiots know our Founding Fathers were fundamentalist Christians?

Welcome aboard, hoggernick.

But I suggest that you get up to speed before you start accusing someone of using a straw man.

"OLYMPIA, Wash. -- An atheist display inside the Washington State Capitol is sparking some outrage and getting attention across the nation.

"Atheist sign causes controversy

A spokesman at the Capitol said they've been getting calls from across the country at a rate of about 200 an hour.

"Among other things, the long message on the display says "There is no God" and it's located close to a nativity display."

Did you notice those words there: ". . . the long message on the display says 'there is no God.'"?

I think I quoted it accurately.

If they want to display that in the court house or the state capitol along side the Ten Commandments, I say more power to 'em.

But to put up an argumentative poster beside a nativity scene is simply an attempt to provoke controversy. IMHO.

Did they do that?

Here's what was reported: "To think that our governor would approve something like this, especially at atheist sign next to the nativity scene."

All I know is what I read in the paper.

What's your take on this? Was it done in the spirit of peace, fellowship, and goodwill toward men?

A "Freedom From Religion" billboard to counter all of the "God" billboards is perfectly acceptable in my estimation.

And anyone should have equal rights to set up a display.

So what kind of "Christmas" display did this group choose? A poster with statements attacking the beliefs of others--specifically of those by whose display they placed their poster.

Peace and goodwill to all.

If we can survive the commie-socialist "Labor Day" with its associated hypocritical capitalistic free market plundering sales, we can survive most anything.

As to the courthouse, statehouse or where ever, put up everyone's display. The constitutition neither guarantees freedom from religion nor freedom from speech. Don't buy the religious displays with my nickle and I don't care what they put up.

Well: I don't quite agree.

The First Amendment says, in part, "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion."

That sounds to me as if the government is prevented from imposing anything related to religion on you--one way or the other.

The government can't compel you to have a religion.

The government can't compel you not to have a religion.

It seems pretty plain to me that that is a constitutional guarantee of freedom from religion.

I'll leave "speech" for another argument.

I exercise MY freedom to have religion.

I respect the right and privilege of anyone else to exercise her/his freedom FROM religion.

I don't want ANYONE to be compelled to have any religion just because I do!!!

I think the constitution treats us all equally. "Congress shall make no law . . . ."

Long live the constitution!!!

"What on earth are you talking about MAK? How is "beware of dogma" so offensive? Is it more offensive than "you're eternally damned to hell if you don't believe my dogma?" "

Where is "you're eternally damned to hell if you don't believe my dogma" printed? I have not seen that billboard. While I realize some sects of certain religions believe this, and while I understand it is the fundamental belief of many Christians...I don't know where it is printed. I certainly have not seen it printed on anything pertaining to Christmas.

Which is my point exactly. Christmas the Christian holiday celebrates peace on earth. Christmas the federal holiday was adopted from Christmas the Christian holiday, but does not exclude or force anyone non-Christian to participate in the belief system... The FFRF has a mission of separating church from state. They have choosen to attack Christmas by putting signs in government buildings to promote their agenda. We all understand what their fundamental belief is, just like they understand what the fundamental belief of Christmas is. So why can they not have a symbol...ie Nativity scene, Menorha, etc., that represents their belief just like all the others do. Instead they have to verbally attack religious beliefs through words. I don't know of anyone that puts up a nativity with a sign that read, "damn all to hell who do not believe". The reason, that is not what the symbol means.

The FFRF is not about inclusion of all, but rather exclusion of all and insists on promoting a message that is meant to offend. By putting up a sign of words attacking all things that may represent religious beliefs they are offending those that believe in anything "christmas".

If their mission is to separate church-from-state, are they not trying to end the holiday season that is Christmas?

I have contacted the FFRF to ask this question. I have not gotten a response, and am not holding my breath waiting for one.

Don't worry, I will definitely beware the dogma of the Freedom from Religion Foundation. I will carefully avoid joining that herd of "free-thinking" minds.

Er, wait. Maybe I misunderstood the message.

This is a brilliant idea!

I wonder if they make yard sized signs.. So one could sincerely place them next to nativity scenes for balance.

No non God (or her evil counterparts) ever caused harm to children or other living things.

Just for the sake of discussion:

The FFRF's basic position is, "There is no god." Sometimes expressed, "there are no gods."

But they want the rest of us to believe this just because they say so. That's their dogma.

Now, let them prove their basic contention: "There is no god."

How does one prove a negative?

When I say, "I believe in God," that's simply my testimony about my belief.

There may be a God; there may not be a God. If not, my belief is wrong. Arguing about it will not change the reality.

Can I "prove" there is a God? Maybe, maybe not. What will you accept as evidence?

My responsibility is not to "prove" that God exists. My responsibility is only to share my faith. If someone does not accept the same faith, s/he has every right to make her/his decision, the same right I claim for myself.

In the final analysis, "faith" is "faith." If you can "prove" it, it's not faith; it's demonstration. And if it's "faith," you don't have to prove it, any more than you can--or have to--"prove" that someone loves you!

Peace and goodwill to all.

Sky Pilot, you missed my point.

Public places should be very open to speech. I've got no problem with displays advocating Christianity, Islam, Judaisim, Hindu, Druid, Jedi, Wiccan, or Atheistic belief on the public square, long as the public dollar isn't putting it there.

Most land and buildings upon it are privately owned and speech there is limited to the speech the owner wishes to make. Opening public places for wide variety of speech is quite appropriate.

Ah, sheez, let a little light shine in and look what you get.

I'm taking a break and reading my Commie Sutra.
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Willie Nelson shows he hears the Angels on "high" as he sings his reason the 3 wise men were tokin' and smokin' on their way to Bethlehem. Click on name.

Thank you very much for your humor of the un-enlightened. I would have responded to your inanities but considering that you have caricatured yourselves I can only say thank you. Open your mouth as often and as wide as possible, thank you for sending your children to see us. May Gov. Palin lead you out of the wilderness of moral and intellectual decrepitude. May you have Clinton to blame forever.

"Christmas is a time when people of all religions come together to worship Jesus Christ." Matt Groening

Well:

I did NOT miss your point.

You said very clearly: "The constitutition neither guarantees freedom from religion nor freedom from speech."

And that's the point to which I responded.

"Congress shall make no law . . . ."

I argue that the constitution does, therefore, guarantee freedom from religion.

And that's my point.

But now I have to check out and go have dinner with family.

Peace and goodwill to all.

MAK -- only "some certain sects" of christianity believe in heaven and hell? I think it's a very recognized tenet of a huge majority of the sects of christianity. I'm pretty sure they're mentioned all the way from genesis to revelations. Is it still christianity if there's no hell?

Many festivities take place this time of year, not just the christian ones. Hanukkah, festivus, solstice, kwanza, you name it. And that's fine. The day off work is fine. It's cold and dark and depressing outside, might as well take off a few days and spend some time with family and friends. I think Dec 25th being a federal holiday is pretty low on the list of things that non-christians worry about. So, I suspect that if the FFRF were to answer your question, the answer would probably be "uh, no."

When you say "We all understand what their fundamental belief is", that's an odd way to put it. Atheists don't have any fundamental beliefs in anything supernatural. What is it that you think they believe in?

>>.and the Muslims Muhammad riding on a camel,...<<

One last thing, Sky you should brush up on your Islam. NO IDOLATRY ALLOWED. NOTTA.
Statues, replicas, painting, engravings, figures, impersonators, notta.

As an associate free thinker there is a belief: Trust the faculty of Reason to solve problems.

Laugh often and love much.

.

MAK, How can you even type peace and christian in the same sentence with a straight face.. it's been the source of more violence than any other form of dogma in human history.

Christmas in America as a whole ... the last thing its about is peace.. unless I missed the word peace on my credit card. Try celebrating it in any Central or South American country.. or Europe.

America is the only country in all Americas or Europe right now which is blowing up several countries needlessly while we type today. Which is almost always the case... at least in my lifetime.

I am free from religion, but have my beliefs. The moment it feels like set in stone dogma, I know for myself i have wandered into the narrow minded thorny briar patch again.

I suppose anti dogma in an extreme would be a dogma in and of itself.... which is why I have never considered myself to be agnostic.

As long as that sexy sounding African American woman keeps answering my prayers at 1-900- Dial a goddess.. I believe in something!

Hogger,
Religious beliefs are very individual. Most people read the Bible and use their own mind to make up what it is they believe exactly.

For instance, I was raised Catholic, but by the age of 12 I realized no priest could tell me whether God had forgiven me of my sins, so I stopped going to confession and receiving the holy eucharist long ago. I now attend a non-denom church. We never speak of hell...we are preached to about doing right, you know not killing-that sort of thing. I am sure my preacher believes in heaven/hell but I have never been damned to hell for anything.

My point is....nativity scenes, menorahs, crescent/star are SYMBOLS of what Christmas means to individuals. All represent a belief that this is a time of year for everyone to stop for a moment and think about peace/goodwill and all that stuff that is found so offensive.

A poster with a paragraph of what is not "real" is not a symbol for anything. It is put there to intentionally offend others.

If CHRISTMAS does not exist...then the capitol should not be lit up. If we are going to separate church from state we should end the federal holiday all together.

What is it these people want!?! They want christmas the fed holiday, but no mention of the fundamentals of the holiday which was federalized to bring Americans together.

Back for a quicky while Sweety puts on her lipstick:

hoggernick: "When you say "We all understand what their fundamental belief is", that's an odd way to put it. Atheists don't have any fundamental beliefs in anything supernatural. What is it that you think they believe in?"

I said, "what their fundamental belief is," I didn't ask what they "believe in," and I make no assumption about what they "believe in."

"Atheist" = "a - theist" = "no god."

I understand that the fundamental belief of an atheist is that there is no god. And that was what was stated on their display in Washington.

My atheist friends tell me that they do not believe in God, or in gods, or in any god. So I take them at their word and do so respectfully. It is not a criticism nor do I intend to offend. I am simply stating the position that atheists themselves have stated to me. If I'm wrong, then I have misunderstood their explanation.

But in any case, I made no reference to what they "believe in."

eLwood: "One last thing, Sky you should brush up on your Islam. NO IDOLATRY ALLOWED. NOTTA.
Statues, replicas, painting, engravings, figures, impersonators, notta. "

You''re right of course. But I didn't intend to be absolutely literal or sacrilegious. The Jews don't believe in having "graven images" either. But I understand they do use some religious symbols: the menorah, the Star of David. So I wanted the Muslims to have equal opportunity, equal billing; whatever display they wish to have. Please pardon my errant reference. I meant it in all due respect.

My intended point was that if one religion can have a display, then any and all religions can have a display. Equality before the law. Equal protection of the constitution: both "of" and "from."

Peace and goodwill to all.

Sweetie almost has her lipstick on.

Sometimes we read too much into the words in the constitution regarding religion. Conservatives use the constitution to indicate you have no right to stop them from worshiping when and where they choose and liberals sometimes use the same constitution to say they don't have to put up with your religion. To me, freedom goes both ways. You have a right to any religion you choose, but you can't impose your religious beliefs on others who don't wish to be bothered. By the same token, you have no right to never be exposed to anyone's religious beliefs. Freedom always has strings and rules....

Jake da Snake,

All I can say is

This bud is for you.

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Make mine "Miller Time!"
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Apparently you DID miss my point.

Establishment has never been strained to the bizarre fringe to say no such speech may occur on the public square. Free and equal access is nothing resembling establishment and no court has reached that result.

Make Mine "White Widow!"

.

Well: I guess I did miss your point.

You seem to have shifted the point from freedom from religion, which you said the constitution does not guarantee, and which I said it does, and which was the point under discussion, as it relates to nativity scenes and such, and you shifted to something about freedom of speech.

Pardon me if I didn't realize you had shifted the point of the discussion.

If we aren't discussing that "congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion," then I'm off base and ready to retire from the discussion, as that was the topic I was addressing.

Thanks for the exchange.

And good night.

Well, I've always said, There's nothing an agnostic can't do if he really doesn't know whether he believes in anything or not.

What part of Jeremiah 10:2-4 do ye heathen not understand??

Take them pagan Christmas trees down now you heathens.

King James version-
Jeremiah:

2 Thus saith the LORD, Learn not the way of the heathen, and be not dismayed at the signs of heaven; for the heathen are dismayed at them.

3 For the customs of the people are vain: for one cutteth a tree out of the forest, the work of the hands of the workman, with the axe.

4 They deck it with silver and with gold; they fasten it with nails and with hammers, that it move not.

Thank you CiCi. You made by far the most intelligent statement and in quite fewer words than the rest. I appreciate all view points of religious beliefs, and I only expect others to have the same respect for mine.

The billboard pictured above does not bother me. I obviously have my personal views on the matter but they hav every right to their view. I do have a problem with signs being posted in state buildings that are meant for the sole intention of offending others. If you want the symbol that represents your faith...or lack of that is fine, but a poster explaining that basically anyone who disagrees with your point of view is wrong, is well wrong.

If scientology wants to put a scene with a marble spaceship hovering over an ashtray that is fine and dandy with me. If the FFRF want to put us a crystal mobile with beakers and monkeys-that is also fine.

And still, Christmas is suppose to be a time for peace and goodwill. Since the beginning of time good things have come out of unfortunate, evil acts. Our country was founded because of lack of religious freedoms and was built on the slaves that Africa sold us, after murdering most of the natives here. And while today here in America, the country so many flee to because of the amazing freedoms we have here, slavery and genital mutilation are found all over Africa. Women are murdered in honor killings all across the middle East. People all over the world are foced to conform or die.

Christmas as a federal holiday was adopted so that maybe everyone would stop for a moment, no matter what was going on in the world, and remember that. Many (about 85% of Americans) celebrate some sort of religious based belief at that time, and having a day where just about everything stops allows people to do just that.

I am not trying to inact laws through Congress (or the Supreme Court as has become the law maker uncconstitutionally) that forces anyone to celebrate my Christmas. But, the FFRF wants to completely separate any sort of belief system from our government that is founded on certain values and morals that strangely enough align with Christian values.

So for the FFRF what does Christmas mean? What is it they want to celebrate. Many states allow any group celebrating a holiday in December to display their symbol of belief. What is the FFRF's symbol? If the state chooses to allow any group to display their symbol of belief, then the FFRF should by all means be included in this. If they only have a poster full of words that are against the symbols being shown...then they should not be allowed.

Merry Christmas, Happy Hannukah, Happy Holidays to all, and if you do not celebrate a holiday, then happy end of December to you.

SkyPilot,

How about a display that said, in a variation of one of the ads from the story, "You don't need a god to be good for goodness' sake"? That seems as mild an assertion as can be made and still get the "no god required" part in effectively.

I can certainly tell you the two things in which I, as an atheist, believe: People and stories, not necessarily in that order.

People have never let me down. Individuals and have, but the human race as a whole inspires me, despite its capacity for folly and cruelty, Most people are mostly good most of the time, and the really rotten are rare (but memorable!) As a whole, people are more kind than cruel, more compassionate than vengeful, more loving than hateful,more generous than stingy. Destruction may be simpler or easier than creation, but many more people want to create than want to destroy.

Stories are how people recreate themselves, and pass themselves and their experiences and ideas into human culture. A striking sign of possible further human evolution is how much more complex and world-like our stories are becoming. Stories are also how we draw, emotionally and intellectually, on other people and their experiences and ideas. Stories guide us, stories lead us, stories mislead us, stories illuminate us, stories comfort us. They are lasting recreations of human experience.

Not particularly well-thought-out, and I have three or more Christmas gifts to buy in the next three hours, so:

Let me wish you Reasons Greetings and a Very Logical New Year! Live long and prosper, in many cases thanks to the connection between long life and prosperity and reproducing at a later age in smaller numbers.

John: I think that other than our core disagreement (I believe in God, you don't) you and I are in essentially total agreement.

In a general sense, what I want for our society is equal opportunity, equal time.

If we Christians can put our symbolic displays in public places, then EVERYONE should be able to put his/her symbolic displays in public places.

My disagreement with the "poster" in Washington's being placed near the nativity scene is that it was textual, not symbolic, and argumentative, with the argument directed toward the believers who plaed the nativity scene.

If they want to put their "There is no god" poster in the court house next to the Ten Commandments, I have no problem with that. Equal opportunity. Equal time.

I have no problem at all with the billboard message, "Beware of Dogma." They have every right to utilize billboards just as the "God" people do. Equal opportunity. Equal time.

And I'll testify again that at a particularly difficult time in my life, my atheist friends treated me better than some people in my own Christian congregation.

I have nothing whatsoever against atheists. I think evryone on the face of this planet has the right to her/his beliefs, whatever they may be.

You and I have different views on the existance of a spiritual world, spiritual beings, and whether there is any kind of life after death. We would also have different views on the origin of all matter. But in the scheme of things in this country, under our constitution, we each have equal right to hold and express those views. I can't think of anything fairer than that.

I am as distressed as anyone else that some believers are inclined to attempt to impose their religious views on others by legislation.

I don't think the state should be trying to accomplish the church's business.

And I don't think the church should be trying to accomplish the state's business.

I am in complete agreement with the FFRF's position: Keep the church and the state absolutely separate. In fact, I'm a dues-paid member of Americans United for Separation of Church and State. And I generally support the positions and work of the ACLU, although I'm not an actual member.

Atheists in general and I are in absolute agreement on these issues of the church and the state keeping their noses out of each other's business.

And I think we're in agreement that if I have the right to hold and express values, views, opinions, and beliefs, then everyone else on the face of the planet should have the same right. I don't believe I ought to have any advantage over anyone else--or anyone else have any advantage over me.

Christianity was not born in an environment that gave it any privileges, and I don't think it deserves any special privileges now. In fact, probably the worst thing that ever happened to Christianity was that it was given special privileges. From special privileges flow exploitation, manipulation, and other abuses of others. Power pollutes.

Skypilot -- In the light of your last post, please accept my apology. I think I had you all wrong, and i was way too defensive earlier.

I think government property shouldn't be opened up for religious displays such as nativity scenes, nor is it a proper place for anti-religious statements such as the "there are no gods" posters. I think the anti-religious stuff, however, is a last-course reaction to government property being used for religious purposes. If it weren't for all the pro-christian stuff that's allowed onto government premises, there'd be no need to counter it or debate it with posters.

hoggernick: Apology accepted.

I think we can all make mistakes if we jump to too many conclusions or assumptions first and don't take time to define our terms. I've done it myself, so I know how easily it can happen.

I understand the position of those who view public property as an improper place for any kind of religious--or anti-religious--display.

Actually, this is the position of Americans United for Separation of Church and State, and probably the ACLU. Although it is a position I don't personally wholeheartedly endorse.

I would prefer public property to be available for displays of ALL religions.

But courts have interpreted the constitution as not allowing governments at any level to permit religious displays. OK. I don't like it. But at least it is equally applied to all. So if others can't, then I'm content that we Christians can't.

I personally don't interpret a nativity scene as "an establishment of religion." And I don't interpret a nativity scene on the court house lawn as being enacted by "congress," as in "congress shall enact no law respecting an establishment of religion," but courts have interpreted it that way, and we're stuck with it. So until I can get the courts to overthrow that interpretation, that's what I have to live with.

During the recent election, some pastors of some churches endorsed certain candidates in an effort to get test cases before the courts. I'm in favor of that kind of action: intentionally violate a statute in order to get a case before the courts. I think that form of civil disobedience is appropriate in a democracy.

I do NOT approve of people's violating statutes and hoping that no one will notice so that they can "get away with it." To me, that's in the same category as running stop signs and hoping you don't get caught. If you want to run a stop sign in the hope of getting a ticket and challenging the law in court, that's one thing. Running a stop sign just because you don't want to stop like everyone else, feeling that you're above the law, or just hoping that no one will notice and you won't get a ticket, is different.

As long as everyone is treated equally and there's no favoritism, I can live peaceably, and have a fair shot at getting things changed through legal appeals or legislation. I don't think I deserve any special consideration just because I happen to be a Christian. And I don't think I deserve any special advantage just because my skin happens to be white. Or that I believe in and practice conventional monogamous marriage.

IMHO.

Peace and goodwill to all.

Bill Maher's legendary last 5 minutes from the movie "Religulous".

/click my name

Skypilot -- regarding the churches openly endorsing candidates, I'm for it too as long as the courts take the logical next step (in my opinion) and revoke their tax-exempt status.

Back to the nativity scene on public property -- a capitol ground with a sole christian nativity scene on it looks very much like a state-sanctioned religion. Some religions oppose erecting monuments, graven images, and other idolatry. The only religions that get the "free advertisement" on state premises are the ones that don't mind a little idolatry here and there. The ones that prefer to keep their religion unto thy self wind up with no advertising. It's a big philosophical hornet's nest that is made much simpler by just keeping the supernatural out of politics. There are plenty of tax-exempt church grounds scattered all around on which they can erect their idols. They've got plenty of tax-exempt dollars with which to purchase billboards all around town advertising "JESUS". Why can't the capitol grounds be reserved for official of-this-world bidness? Just look at how much of our holiday time has been diverted to bickering about it?

hoggerneck: You and I have SLIGHTLY DIFFERENT views on the "religious display" thing.

But not different enough to argue over--or even debate.

I can see the logic in "no religious" displays on tax-supported property.

I would prefer a little different interpretation; but I can see the logic. So I'm content with that if that's the way the courts want to rule--which they have.

As for the pastors endorsing candidates: That was the basic point of their doing it--to have a complaint filed, get it into court, and get a ruling on whether the IRS is on constitutional grounds or has overstepped its authority with its 501(c)(3) stipulation about supporting candidates.

There is a religious element that believes that stipulation is unconstitutional and they want it tested in the supreme court. They contend that stipulation infringes upon their free speech rights.

As long as the stipulation is in place, I'm on the side of ministers not endorsing candidates. Even if it is overthrown, I would prefer that my minister not endorse a candidate, but I'm happy to grant him his constitutional right if it turns out that way. I still prefer to keep church and state separated.

So you and I are very close on the issues. What differences we have are minor enough to disagree on without being disagreeable.

Thanks for your courteous and respectful reaction and the interesting exchange.

Peace and goodwilll.