Arkansas Blog

Click on name to see an AT Blog article from 2008 about the Wal-Mart effect. In the latter portion it discusses Dr. Naccaman Williams, a member of the State Board, who is considered pro-charter and connected with the WalMart Foundation.

Heller's strongest point seems to be the fact that similar cases in other states have been ruled in favor of the public schools and have been based on the need for all to follow deseg rules. The laws are clearly there and the State Board has repeatedly ignored them.

Opinion: the playing field is not level, the rules are not being followed, and some of the referees seem partial to one side over the other and unwilling to toss the penalty flag.

So what is the beef with charter schools? Are they producing dumber students? Are they misappropriating money and spending it poorly? It appears that the only gripe is that the better students go there and they are not big on pushing certification for their teachers. Is that it?

First of all, the certification process for teachers is a joke. Many have degrees in education and not in the particular subjects that they teach. The education degree is also a joke. Private schools do not require certification. I haven't heard anyone claim that their teachers are below par to public teachers. Most teachers will tell you in private that they retain next to nothing from the education curriculum that they took to get those degrees. Many who are certified and have education degrees aren't very good teachers. Ask the students. However, I digress.

Charter Schools are probably the one hope that public education has if that. To attempt to destroy it because you don't like the fact that a lot of white kids go there is not a valid reason.

This is an honest, non-combative question. The paragraph that begins at the bottom of page 13 addresses waiting lists in magnet schools. If there is a school with specialized programs and extra funding, how does it make any sense to deny Black children an education in that school if seats are available? "Sorry kid, we need to save this seat for a white child."

1. USA News: "On average, charter schools are not performing as well as their traditional public-school peers, according to a new study that is being called the first national assessment of these school-choice options. The study, conducted by the Center for Research on Education Outcomes at Stanford University, compared the reading and math state achievement test scores of students in charter schools in 15 states and the District of Columbia-amounting to 70 percent of U.S. charter school students-to those of their virtual "twins" in regular schools who shared with them certain characteristics. The research found that 37 percent of charter schools posted math gains that were significantly below what students would have seen if they had enrolled in local traditional public schools. And 46 percent of charter schools posted math gains that were statistically indistinguishable from the average growth among their traditional public-school companions. That means that only 17 percent of charter schools have growth in math scores that exceeds that of their traditional public-school equivalents by a significant amount."
In defense of charter schools in this report, opponents question to way data was collected (but have not shown it to be invalid) and it is typical for a student to have an academic drop if they change schools, whether it be from a transfer to another system or just an advancement from one school to another within a district (elementary to middle school to high school).

2. Charter schools and financial troubles: click on name for an AT article from 2007.

As for the rest of the opinions -- there's simply no data there. I would cite the Texas Sharpshooter Effect but when none of the random shots have even hit the barn then one should wonder whether blanks or faulty ammunition are being used.

The Stanford/CREDO report showed Arkansas charter schools to be an exception to their general conclusions.

So what is being proposed here? Are you advocating that we shut down charter schools in Arkansas? I have a feeling that if you attempted that you would meet with stiff resistance from patrons or they would do their voting by doing what other patrons have done----private school or moving to Bryant. The net result would be that the LRSD would be more segregated.

Doc, you have a good point. But, the question is with the rules not with the district which follows them.

LRSD may be answering that specific problem by allowing black students to transfer to higher-achieving non-magnet schools. I was told that such is happening with Pulaski Heights Middle School but have not seen the data on it. If I remember correctly, such transfers are approved by the superintendent.

Again, it points to the problems of an unlevel playing field: the team that can play outside the rules certainly has benefits from this that those playing by the rules don't have.

Jake, the situation that you describe might be relevant to one of Max's favorite arguments. if there are elective transfers of Black students to high-performing schools, what does that mean for the schools that lose those students? Are they left with the children of parents who are not involved, or less educated, or otherwise less able to seek such a transfer?

It seems to me that the only real issue here seems to be the racial composition of the charter schools. They appear to be too white. If that is the case why don't you just come right out and say so. Then you can abolish them because they are too segregated. 'progressive' certainly have the power to do that. What are you hedging about?

mike, please read Mr. Heller's report before making your random comments.

Other than your first point, Mike, I agree with your last post. The reaction scenario you describe could be very likely, especially if fueled by the media or ad campaigns.

If you follow Michelle Rhee and other reformers, then click on my name for an article from the Harvard Business School called "The Role of Social Entrepreneurship in Transforming U.S.A.
Public Education."

Doc - another good point. I'll let Max address it since you seem to be pointing it in his direction.

I agree with the education expert who said that when we improve ALL schools, then we will have real school choice.

Due to lag time, I'd better annotate my last remark: I was referring to Mike's 7:32 posting.

Here's that report. I'd better go have some breakfast. Will check back in this afternoon.

I did read the report. There is NOTHING new here. They don't like the racial composition. For the umpteenth time we are back to getting the numbers right. There is a feign at innovative teaching but that is just a smoke screen for what they really want----racial quotas. Education isn't the issue, numbers are the issue.

After I don't know how many times of dealing with this we never change. The schools keep losing patrons to Bryant and Benton and we keep skirting the issue and playing games with numbers. People aren't stupid. They know what is going on. People will keep enabling this nonsense and education in this country will continue going down the tubes. We will be fiddling while Rome burns.

SNake, I read your report and found it very interesting. It appeared to be very candid about school funding, school boards and class size issues. Refreshing to read something like that on this blog. Kudos to you for providing it.

There were about 10-12 transfers from LRSD to Bryant/Benton last year out of LRSD's student total of about 26,000 + students. This is about .046%. So about 1 in every 2000 students transfered to B/B. Not very significant by any statistician's measurement.

According to a report put out by Bryant School district: in the school year 2008-2009, under the school choice option, there were 40 transfers into the dirstrict and 40 transfers out of the district for a net gain of zero.

You are taking one year alone. This process has been going on for several years. That is an old debaters trick but nice try.

The numbers have basically been the same for the past 5 years. I don't have data available for before that but there's no reason to suspect it's any different. Sorry, I didn't make it clear that the number given was typical.

No debater's trick. Just plain ol' facts. Do you have any numbers to show otherwise?

The reason I refer to last year is simply because it is the one in which LRSD had the 3% loss in student population. Your contention would have had its strongest case if there were numbers there to support the transfers you claim happening. The opposite proved to be true. LRSD to B/B transfers were almost statistically nil and unchanged from previous years.

Unless you can bring forth data to the contrary, you have no basis for your claim and the data that is on record at both LRSD and B/B shows your claim to be without merit.

So what are you contending? Did the loss of patrons occur due to evaporation? Go to Bryant and ask people where they used to live and why they moved to Bryant. Why has private school enrollment in Pulaski County grown? Did they all come from outside of Pulaski County? Did they just grow out of the ground? If everything is hunky dory in LRSD then you have nothing to worry about. The schools will prosper and kids will get the kind of education that will afford them good jobs. However, if it degenerates or just stays level then you have a problem.

Here's a look at the LRSD enrollment data for the last 5 school years. You will see the school year, the enrollment number, and the percentage it changed from the previous year.

2004 25346 -0.7%

2005 25720 +1.5%

2006 26462 +2.9%

2007 26757 +1.1%

2008 25910 -3.2%

Overall net change from 2004-2008 was +2.2%.

If anything, critics of LRSD who tout a pattern of students leaving to other schools are the ones who are relying solely on one year of data. The overall picture shows otherwise.

Mike, if you would just come up with some data, you'd have a chance in this fight. The facts are killing your case and your answer is to go to some home in B/B and find an answer that even you don't have numbers for. Forget debate tricks. This is not even a valid debate tool.

Like I said....until you put up some data, you're trying to sell us a dead horse. And at the rate you keep going, the flies are getting mighty thick around its carcass.

Mike doesn't "do" data - he is all POV, mostly RWing talking points/myths and his active imagination. He comes here only to shit in the sugar bowl. "Don't feed the Trolls!"

Since many people will consider comparing schools, allow me to present the following:

Let's compare eStem Algebra 1 results for 2009 to similar schools within LRSD (Parkview Magnet HS, Pulaski Heights Middle School). For LRSD, I must use 2008 results, but 2009 results are basically the same according to my contact. The percentages represent Proficient or higher results in Algebra 1 testing.

eStem High School: 59%
eStem Middle School: 63%

Parkview Magnet HS: 69.5%
Pulaski Heights MS: 87%

(Sources: Arkansas Department of Education, NORMES Testing Results; Arkansas Democrat Gazette, 19th July 2009 edition, page 19, Arkansas Section, "2009 Pulaski County exam results.")

Of course, a more rigorous approach to this comparison should be taken. But, the comparison does show that there are dramatically significant differences in the scores when one puts eStem schools up against its counterparts within the Little Rock School District.

And, of course, there's the LISA Academy with math scores in the mid 90 per cent range. We can go on and on and on with numbers and comparisons. Here are some extra facts that color these numbers: LISA Academy algebra instructors are former UALR math professors and are considered some of the best in the business; eStem fired their Algebra teacher mid-term and Principal John Bacon took over teaching the class for the remainder of the year; of those students transferring to eStem, roughly 80-90% of them are classified as Proficient or above on their public school test results; despite such changes, LRSD magnet schools outperform their eStem counterparts on the same test.

But, I am not blind as some try to imply. LRSD has serious academic problems with its African-American student population, especially black males. Cloverdale Middle School will soon be taken over by the state and several schools are on Year 3 of school improvement. The administration still is too large, too inefficient, and lacks clear leadership to make the tough decisions needed to turn the district completely around.

Yet, the school board may be beginning to become united and in this unity begin to take a cold, hard look at the facts and data regarding LRSD programs and personnel.

Larry, POV without supporting information is pointless. Doc was right. The issue is Heller's statement and what it portends to the local systems.

I admit I really don't fully understand the charter concept but I can't complain because I have family teaching in one. It's a good gig.

This school is extremely efficient in giving parents what they want and students what they need. A lot of the students are formerly home schooled kids whose parents want to introduce them to the main stream but not really. Parents are able to be involved in their student's education much more so than they can be at larger public operations who talk big about parental involvement but in reality aren't equipped to handle it.

I sometimes wonder about the charter school concept when I see some of the cowboys who are in charge.

Resegregation and white flight are part parents making reasoned choices and part real estate promotion induced hysteria.

There are terrible schools out there that need to be fixed or shuttered. We know which ones they are but we're just wastng time and making excuses while kids get screwed out of their education potential. None of blame could ever be placed on the union. I'm a troll for mentioning that.

You might be surprised on my views on unions. Google Andrew Rotherham + collective bargaining. Keep looking & you'll get a speech he gave that covers it. I kinda agree with him.

I once had high hopes for charter schools and how they could serve kids (from K to teens) with mild to more severe learning disabilities (dyslexia and such) or who just learn in a different way and who are under served in regular schools.
I thought that charter schools would be the place where these kids could be in smaller classes with teachers who understand how they learn and who would be free to use more innovative methods.
I thought these would be schools where teachers would have the time and resources to reach the kids who are more likely to drop out because they just never got reading or math and got left behind.
Sadly, at least in Arkansas, it seems that these schools are actually just a place for students who do well no matter where they would go.
Maybe in other states there are charter schools that are innovative and serving the kids who get shuffled to the side as they get older, but not here.

"Sadly, at least in Arkansas, it seems that these schools are actually just a place for students who do well no matter where they would go."

Why do they go? If that question could be addressed, there would not be a need for charter schools.

"Sadly, at least in Arkansas, it seems that these schools are actually just a place for students who do well no matter where they would go."

Why do they go? If that question could be addressed, there would not be a need for charter schools.
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I don't know Doc....I have my suspicions being the cynical bitch that I am and knowing a few homeschoolers who chose to send their kids to LISA as they got older instead of their local public school.
We ended up cobbling together a homeschool education (using therapies, accommodations, tutoring and assistive technologies) for our son who has the trifecta of dyslexia, dysgraphia and dyscalculia.
(all learning disabilities, but diagnoses the state does not recognise...that way the school does not have to provide services specific to those diagnoses just to the all-round "severe learning disability". That way when you go in for an IEP (individualized Education Plan) the school does not have to do the things that are proven to help your child's specific disabilities. Things maybe dif now, but Bryant/Saline country SUCKED when he was younger and we were thinking about school.)
None of this really has anything to do with Charter schools EXCEPT that I was pretty disappointed in how things shook out and what types of schools were formed since from what I can tell they pretty much do education the "old fashion way" with nothing innovative to talk about.

Thanks Jake Snake for your erudite, well reasoned approach. It's difficult even for the best bullshitters to argue with numbers.

Thanks eLwood. In accepting this compliment and Pat-On-The-Back Award, I would like to pay grateful homage to those hardworking doctors at the VA and St. Vincent who keep track of my blood pressure, heart condition, cholesterol, and various bodily fluids with their myriad tests and probes while helping me to achieve inner peace thru transcendental medication.

Meanwhile, back at the ranch dressing room, am curious as to when Heller will be on tonight's agenda for the LRSD school board meeting.

Ok, I'll concede the 7300 approx. students in Bryant are just a phantom of my imagination and have nothing to do with the LRSD. Next time I hear how they left LRSD so they could send their kids to the Bryant system I'll tell them they are delusional per Snake.

Oh, I'll do the same to the private school students.

Sorry, Mike, but you've already lost this argument. The only phantom is your non-existent data and as for imagination, I guess you just imagine everyone will ignore years of data versus no data whatsoever. The only one talking about delusions is yourself.

You certainly can go to any school district and find students who have transferred to there from other districts. Adn tell their parents that they're delusional. I could use your logic and go to LRSD parents who have transferred in from other schools and towns and tell them how delusional they are.

In fact, based on your logic and reasoning, just about everyone is delusional except yourself.

As previously noted, you fail to provide data or make valid connections and when that happens, you fail to win the argument. (And, of course, you don't want to do any debate tricks like only use one year of data.)

The flies around your dead horse are getting thicker and thicker. And playing bongos with that rotting equine flesh aint helping your cause.

I take no offense at your errors and lack of data and logical fallacies and efforts to misdirect or misquote. And in some alternate universe, I'm sure that .05% or 2.2% are hugely significant changes. And I hope you bear me no grudge for being unable to concede when I've already won. I have to admire someone still trying to taunt me when they're crawling on the floor.

Thank you much.

I'm glad I don't keep up with this drivel anymore. It is truly a crime to see how the LRSD has regressed - literally. Snake complains about the charters being too white as well as Bryant and Benton and he intimates that it is because of racial prejudice. He can spout out any facts to counter any other facts and say how under par charter schools are performing. Then he denigrates anyone who disagrees with him. I admit he is a very smart and educated person but he can't be right all the time. Human beings and emotions cannot be quantified. Working together with a little more tact will probably go a lot further instead of pushing the ego.
Every time I walked down the hallways at Hall High after John Bacon left I was pushed and disrespected. Obscene gestures and language by both girls and boys were and probably still is the norm. I observed four fights at different times during lunchtime and inadvertently got involved in one as I was trying to leave the lunchroom after volunteering! The current principal has lied to me on several occasions and frequently was not even at school. I have witnessed LRSD employees bypass rules (such as children having cell phones) using the excuse that they worked for the LRSD and teachers should have known better than to have confiscated the cell phone. The common denominator is that all of this involved African-Americans. That is not prejudice that is fact. What perception am I supposed to have?
I have walked down the halls at eStem and it is a different story. There is about an equal mix of African-Americans to Whites and what is amazing is that all of them, regardless of race, are respectful, quiet and appear eager to learn. The same is true at Lisa when I visited that school. The difference is that I found a lot more needy kids at eStem that are receiving help than at Lisa. Even though proficiency tests may not have been as high at eSTem than some of the public schools only enforces the fact that it is not stacked with kids who are already proficient. And I don't think that their education at eStem has lowered their proficiency.
Charter schools don't siphon any students. Charter Schools don't go in and pull those students from the LRSD, the parents of those kids do that. Forget the numbers! The LRSD doesn't have a quality product and can't compete with charter schools because it (LRSD) is always in turmoil. Get real. Don't force parents to send their children to schools they don't have a good perception about. They'll only move to Benton and Bryant. If you fix the LRSD (get rid of everyone or let the State take it over) Little Rock will never be able to reach it's full potential. Quit arguing for the sake of arguing and simply fix the problems.

No, no, no, I won't lie..I did take my white daughter out of school, out of LRSD. Someone mentioned how the issue is skirted because of numbers? I took my daughter out because of what she wasn't getting in class. Teachers, good and bad are over worked and can't give more than a minute to any one student and they must pray they caught it within that time. But any parent knows the kids need more and more. What she wasn't getting from the teachers as far as attention goes, she was getting from her classmates was ridicule. She tried too hard to fit in with her classmates who were mostly African American. Some kids were great...others not so great. Yes, there were a couple of kids who were white that were just as mean. But those white kids in class, they were bullied. She was one of 4 students one year that was listed as white in the school....IN THE SCHOOL. World History month was about only the African contributions, not a single white one.
I saw the reverse I suppose from when I was a kid. I thought how ironic in some ways that everything turned around. I studied the known African American icons, but of course it was merely dabbled then, unlike now where rightly they are strongly advocated and taught in school. My drawback to the education, was saturation overload. My daughter could recite every single major black icon of history, but didn't know anything past Washington and Lincoln. There was no balance of education. I thought of how she wasn't being educated fairly. When she made her friends, she talked of her 'booty' and spoke such bad english the more she talked with the very friends she tried so hard to impress. She thought if she looked like her friends, spoke like her friends and dressed like her friends she would fit in. She never did, yes they were African-American. The boys were talking to her like she was less than human, something about the way they were talking to her made me cringe.
I thought that it wasn't the kids fault, but the parents. We've all been too busy to get off the computer, off the phone, or to turn off the tv to spend time with our kids. Is it the teachers that are to raise my child, your child? No, when the police want to come knocking on my door about my daughter's behavior who do I blame? The teachers? No...I'm responsible for her, no one else. But I see as a parent and from what I see in my work, that the LRSD schools are dumping grounds...the teachers are babysitters.
But now, perhaps you think I'm racist, I'm not...I've learned that it's character of the person, not the color. I work two jobs where I see trashy people of both colors, it IS character that is lacking. No responsibility anymore. If you want to call me names then perhaps your character is not as upright as you think it is.
I took my daughter out of LRSD a few years back because of what I saw in school. I don't need numbers to explain why the system is failing. I already know, I've experienced it. Yes, now she fits in better, she has blossomed educationally because of it...and that was my goal.

I don't have to explain my views any further to anyone...but I thought I would be a voice you would want to hear...."see...there...right there...is a racist!" you might say...I am not but I see the truth only as I know it...not as you, not as a African American...

And yes, if I saw in a rural school full of whites acting this way or in any way that made my daughter uncomfortable, I would yank her out of that school too...

Irresponsibility of the parents...that's where your true numbers lie.

Really, you are a liar because I never said anything of the kind about charter schools and racial prejudice. And I haven't written one line here today that says a thing about Bryant's racial makeup nor mentioned it in connection with the numbers I gave out. Now, if you want me to include racial data about Bryant, I'll gladly look it up for you.

If you want to come in here and start lying right off the bat, then please don't be offended if I find your ensuing statements less than stellar. It is rather odd that you accuse me of racial prejudice when I have made no statements here today about such and then you blame the problems of Hall High School on African Americans. ("The common denominator is that all of this involved African-Americans.")

I'm sorry you cannot find any data to make your arguments more presentable and valid. It doesn't destroy the validity of my arguments because I took the time and effort to dig up the information to back my claims. It is telling that you dismiss the data and offer none to counter it or to support any of your contentions. Larry was right, some folks just hate to Do Data.

If anyone is arguing for the sake of arguing, then your entry certainly sets the bar for others. You spout some lies, you present a disjointed anecdote that is filled with spite and hatred then claim it's not about prejudice, and you basically are just weaseling along when it comes to facts or presenting a fair picture.

I grant that you had unhappy and bad experiences at Hall HS. A board member and I discussed some of the problems going on at Hall. She has some good ideas on how to address that issue which she thinks the board will work on and put in place. And, it's a matter of record that I have both criticized problems at LRSD and praised its accomplishments. Some schools are beacons and some need serious overhauls.

Secondly, I have not been critical of the way eStem runs their school nor have I commented on their racial makeup. In making the comparisons with some particular schools in LRSD, it was simply to show that one can find as good, if not better, test results being produced in LRSD.

Recall that I mentioned the school choice transfers for 2009 in Bryant. The parents of 40 students chose to transfer their children out of the district. Should I base my opinion of every school and teacher and administrator in that district on what these disgruntled parents said? The answer is obviously No. Does it mean that there is not a problem? Again, the answer is obviously No. Does it mean that the parents were not justified in removing their children? Again, the answer is likely No.
Do I make simplistic judgments from such a narrow view of events?

The answer is most emphatically No.

If I shine the reality of data on false claims and all you do is complain about the glare, then that's not my fault. If you want to present facts and argue reasonably your side of the issue, I will do you the courtesy of checking your data, look up additional sources, check out your logic, and try to refrain from injudicious name-calling.

Sadly, you chose to begin your statement with lies and distortions. That's already crawling on the floor before I even respond.

Thanks mallen for your epistle. I certainly don't fault you for removing your daughter in those circumstances. At least you didn't try to put lies in my mouth.

As I stated on other education topics, I am not blind to the problems with some of the schools in LRSD but I do have problems with those who blindly dislike every person, teacher and school in the LRSD. That is equallly prejudicial and bigoted in judging the many by the actions of the few.

What I have used the data for here today is to show that claims about an exodus are exagerrated and that a look at the facts show a different story. I respect anecdotal accounts about specific instances or schools, but it is wrong to reason from the specific to the general so I ask for a larger frame of information that will help prove your claim.

A former colleague and I spoke today about all the issues and problems facing schools in Pulaski County, in Arkansas, and in the US. Race was a factor in nearly every one of them. Mind you, I didn't say racism. I said Race - the lens through which we, our friends, our neighbors, and our fellow citizens view each other. It is a complicated and complicating issue.

I continue to work with many to find solutions that will help LRSD. Recognizing BOTH good and bad is essential. Ignoring either does no good and only harm.

ReallyConcerned,

I took the time to look at some of your past entries. We've disagreed at times, you've been quite factual at times, we even have stated similar things about SCORE and Target Teach, and -- yes -- you have caught me out by using data and facts when you had them. Also, you've been rather angry and vocal about it at times. Wood shed type talking.

So, why is it suddenly wrong for me to use data and facts when I have them? Why is it I cannot remand bad logic, unsupported claims, correct distortions, or sneak out an occasional "Harrumph!" when the situation calls for it?

Today, you abandoned some principles that made your previous arguments carry weight. The result severely weakened your stance. I would like to go back to square one again on this issue with you and hear what you have to say and see if there is information we both can find to help us see the big picture better.

I know using facts doesn't make me an expert and constructing logical and reasoned arguments doesn't make me wise. But doing neither and claiming to have insight and know the truth definitely borders too close to foolishness for my comfort.

Better shut up or I'll start singing Kum-Ba-Yah.