Arkansas Blog

That seem to be a common story. Police armed with semi-automatic pistols and high capacity magazines blasting away at a perpetrator. I am not sure what the answer is but more realistic training and more frequent fire-arms re-qualification might be a place to start.

Nine shots fired and only one hit anything but the wall??? Nice shooting there Barney, maybe Andy'll give you some more bullets next time.

Damn. I probably shoot more rounds a year than those cops. I doubt they were shooting at a static target but that hit ratio sucks...

...a Cop has 10 seconds to decide what a jury has ample time to review and a lawyer has 10 years to pick apart for the (pending) lawsuit.... thank God for lawyers? No, I thank God for the Cops who are willing to go out each day and make decisions the rest of us choose not to make...If they would not have fired, the lawyer would say they should have....Since they did fire and the bullet hit the lady, the lawyer will say they should not have fired....Oh, and don't forget the lawyer who probably got this guy out of countless domestic abuse charges prior to this incident....So, thank God for lawyers, right! Cops and Lawyers are alike - you never need one till you need one!!!!!! Just hope when you are in the same situation a Cop is there who can seperate the fact that he is killing a human from the fact that he is doing the right thing....so, without all of the distractions in his head, maybe he can shoot straight......God bless the woman and her family.........

Certainly more training is in order. Seems that cops have no problem whipping out the tazers on old people and children.... but then if they couldn't hit this guy with a bullet, their aim with a tazer might've been just as bad. Still, don't they carry billy-clubs anymore? Between the two of them, you'd think they might've been able to rush the guy and knock him up side the head.
I know, I know, it's easy to second guess when we aren't aware of the whole circumstances. But I agree with Henry, if they're going to arm the cops with the high power military equipment, at the very least, teach them how to use it correctly. And, just maybe, we may want to rethink the extent to which we are militarizing our local police forces.
How very sad it is that this young pregnant woman was killed. One has to wonder if she could've survived the stab wounds had she not also been shot in the head.

HardHeadedWoman they did have Tazers and fired one of those first and sort of missed. Here is the story from the Northwest Ark Times.

http://nwanews.com/adg/News/263240/

No, I thank God for the Cops who are willing to go out each day and make decisions the rest of us choose not to make
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I agree...I am pretty good with a .45 at paper targets but could I do a "double tap" at the center of mass of a person? Hopefully I never get an answer to that question. But the issue is are there better training methods that would prepare a law enforcement person for the "heat" of the moment. Or maybe the reports of many shots fired and wrong person hit are a sampling error.

Thanks, ARKDEMOCRAT. But it just goes to show that they apparently weren't any better with the tazer than they were with the guns.
Of course no one will ever know exactly what happened in this incident. One has to wonder, however, how much adrenaline the officers were pumping and how that might have affected their actions. If only there was some training for how to manage that.

This story had heavy coverage in local media.

There are some very cloudy events. One report says that victim called police when she saw ex bf in the parking lot..police arrived shortly thereafter and saw suspect enter her apt. while police were entering the parking lot.

This makes little sense. The suspect could enter thru the victim's door while the police had to break a window. So the victim had the door unlocked to the suspect?

One version is on clickit.
Prosecutor will likely move this to capital murder soon.

Here's another initial report. click on eLwood.

I don't know why anyone would ever think self investigation by police of their own actions (or anyone else's self investigation) would ever be considered credible.

That's just bat shit crazy from the get go.

In 1970's, I had a nephew killed by a rookie cop in Salem, Oregon, at a backyard family disturbance . An article aired on 60 minutes a few months later, about the Police Shootings in that City. Said that a person was more likely to killed by a Police Officer in Salem, then by a mugger in Detroit, or New York. I think they had about 371 fatal police shootings in a very short span, enough it got national attention.
Yes HH Woman, imagine the adrenaline was pumping, but could you also put one of these at a traffic stop, late at night, all alone, on 412 W. around Tonnitown, and a car load of minorities, about twenty something. They need better training, better pay and benefits, and they better get it done before they stop your Son, Daughter, or Grand-Child. Someone close to you, and we are reading about it in the paper.

I watched an interesting show the other night about the British SAS Forces. They train with real live ammo every day to the point where they don't let adrenalin cause them to lose focus, in essence they become a killing machine totally in tune with their weapon. You contrast this with a police officer that shoots to qualify and may even shoot for sport, but still may go years without pulling his gun and yet at times we expect the same level of skill from them as the SAS or Delta Force people. As has been said they are to be commended for what they do and unfortunately things don't always come out good. It goes both ways. Pity the family of the Plumberville policeman that was killed in a routine traffic stop a few weeks back.

Yet another example of why you shouldn't rely only on the police to protect you. They do all they can, but sometimes that's just not enough. They can't be everywhere all the time.

LEARN TO PROTECT YOURSELF!

If this woman had been armed, we might be reading a different story today.

not to nitpick, but the article said the police saw a person (presumably the attacker) in the doorway and then heard the door slam.

I hope she didn't let him in. he looks like he could've handled a door pretty easily.

anyway, its not clear from the article that she let him in voluntarily. eLwood, I dont mean to be such a pain about it. Im trying to clarify the whole thing in my mind too. One thing I do know, from my last suitor, is that if your 26- or even 22-y/o daughter wants to take up with someone who is 41 and has been in prison, as his did, there aint a damn thing you can do about it.

my suitor said he was sure the MENSA society missed this dude when he was spending his time with his daughter instead of at their meetings...... but nobody was laughing after he left when the baby was 3 months old. Of course, he only moved back into the motel his momma managed, so he aint gone far. Why, Lord, why do young girls think they can "save" or "fix" men who have been in prison or have a severe allergy to work or whatever???
honey, the only person who can "fix" a man is a veterinarian. Or a urologist, they just goto other terms.

tina, I don't know if you recieve 40/29 but they had a hurried, jumbled report on Mon. nite indicating the victim had been calling the suspect. Additionally they reported that the suspect's wife or ex-wife drove him to the scene.

I noticed that report quickly disappeared. Most stories now focus on the suspect and his history.
http://www.4029tv.com/video/19896564/index.html

Victim was 26, and a graduate of UAF in '07. Her obit is on my name. Scroll down to Jill Ulmer.
.

"They need better training, better pay and benefits..."

Americonio, I couldn't agree more. I'm not familiar with the area around Tonnitown or the scenario you mentioned. Is this something that actually happened? And if so, did the fact that they were minorities have anything to do with it?
I'm not being snarky...just asking.

HHW close to Tontitown was one of the worst police atrocities in Ark history.
State Trooper Larry Norman shot and killed Erin Hamley just outside of Siloam Spgs. close to
Tontitown.
Erin was mentally retarded. He was confused that police were shouting at him to lie down which he
did, then up rushes Trooper Norman, shotgun at the ready and shoots the poor fellow while he's on his back on the ground.

The Facists in Bentonville (County seat) thought this was a little unfortunate, slapped his hand. He kept his pension and found other work.

Sometimes Erin ended up a ways from home because cruel teens would offer him a ride from the Jones Center for Families where he spent many afternoons. He had no idea of their cruel intentions and would go along. Often they would let him out far from his Springdale home. They found it funny to see a retarded man lost.

Part of story on bluename.

eLwood, thank you for the link.
That is so terribly sad and tragic. If I live to be a thousand, I will never understand how some people can be so absolutely horrible to those who cannot protect themselves.
It's equally disturbing to see the consequences of inexperience and adrenaline. An all too lethal combination.

No H.H. Women, it's just a scenario I see building with my Casino trips. But fortunately at the present time this is mostly State Police Patrolled. Which elwood will tell you that doesn't mean a lot of comfort either. These East West Through fares bring a lot of undesirable dealings. Especially the I44 thru-fare, a lot of drug bursts on that road.Have you watched the North Hollywood Bank robbery? Going up against a suspect that maybe armed is one thing, going up against a wacked out one, like those two that is a lawmans nightmare. I just see 412 between Tontitown and Siloam Springs could be a place, alot of wide-open space there.

Plumberville was tragic democrat, we had a Officer Wood in Baxter County who pulled over a speeder, and it turned out to be the Guy who shot up the Gay Bar back East. Officer Wood I don't think knew what hit him, and the believe is he was probably just going to say to slow down. That is the meaner of this officer, no harm no foul, if knowone was in danger.

". . . If this woman had been armed, we might be reading a different story today. . . ." Art Vandalay

Let's see . . .

1) The police, adrenaline at max overload, see a woman in a charged situation with a gun in her hand possibly pointing toward them . . . The only two possible good scenarios are A) The Police are so hyped they miss her because they are trying to put two or three in her ten ring; B) The accidendental homicide is justiifed by the threat the officers felt to their lives by the "gun toting" woman . . .

2) The woman, with adrenlaine maxed out and .38 in her hand A) Blows away the knifeman and is taken out by the arriving cops justified in using deadly force because of fear for their lives; B) Wounds the knifeman and gets slashed then blown away by the by the arriving cops justified in using deadly force because of fear for their lives; C) The weapon is unloaded and the knifeman, enraged by the threat to his life restages a Manson family attack and as she is expiring, the police arrive and blow everything away; D) Blows away the knifeman, drops the gun and surrenders to the police and is tried for 2nd degree murder or manslaughter; E) Tries to blow away the knifeman and the police, arriving on scene hear multiple gunshot and enter shooting and exit with two cadavers with multiple exit holes. . . .

Were those the stories your referred to Mr. Vandalay?

As you point out, dott, anything could have happened had the woman been armed. However, the least likely would have been 2D, being charged with manslaughter or second degree murder. She was in her own home, had an order of protection against the guy and he had a knife. Charges highly unlikely. Even if she were to face charges, at least she would be alive.
Simple fact: if you are prepared to defend yourself, both physically and psychologically armed, you have a far better chance of surviving. Could I pull the trigger if I were so threatened? I don't doubt it. For years my husband worked out of town for weeks at a time and I lived in an isolated part of a county when there was only one deputy on duty at night. He could easily be 45 minutes away. The shotgun was always close at hand. It's still is.
But the most disturbing incident I've ever been involved in was at a friend's house. I was able to back her drunken threatening son down with nothing but a calm, cold self-assurance that I didn't realize I possessed until that moment. You never know what you're going to face. Or where. Screaming, crying and shrinking back from an attacker only assures him he's really in charge of the situation.

If the cops got there while the attack was in progress and the woman had a gun, they'd have shot her as many times as they could. There's 100% chance of that.

If they break into her house in the middle of the night, it being the wrong house, but and she pulls a gun, she'll be dead and they'll be making a few excuses before they move onto the next case.

It's probably better to surrender to the attacker and be raped or have your things stolen than it is to pull a gun for self-defense and have the police show up. At least in the first scenario you have a chance of coming out alive.

Thank you, CB. One of my points exactly. A gun is not a magic wand in a high-pressure or adrenaline charged situation, it is and invitation to use deadly force.

And Doigotta, you have much more faith than I do in our police officers and Prosecuting Attorneys. You get them in a situation where a woman shoots and kills someone and somehow the correct outcome does not always occur, regardless of what is right and wrong.

I agree with you that the result you describe should be what happens. However, I have seen too many situations where police officers arrest and push charges and out-of-control prosecutors prosecute on their own volition or self-righteousness to trust them to do the right thing. Especially when the shooter is a woman, with or without a restraining order and an armed attacker.