Arkansas Blog

Ath a letes and maintenance workers.

From the article:

"When asked why UAPD took almost two weeks to contact the prosecutor about the rape allegations, Roberts said, "It's typical of an investigation. It take a while to talk to everybody that's needed. [UAPD] can't come to the prosecutor with an allegation. They have to have talked to witnesses."

Until women and children are no longer considered marginal citzens in this country, rape allegations will never be taken seriously or investigated in a timely manner. We live in a rape culture. How else can we explain the abysmally low number of rapes that even get reported much less investigated, much less prosecuted, much less convicted and then finally sentenced? To add insult to injury, if the rapist even gets put in jail, his sentence is reduced and he is paroled, just like Garrido was in CA. We don't give a crap about crimes against women and children. Laws that protect property are more vigorously investigated and prosecuted than rape allegations.

This here is like deja vu all over again.

are they claiming that in both cases the victim was drunk and/or expressed her profound desire to "pull a train"??

When that happened during the Nolan era I didnt even know what that meant. But as one of our fine Razorback scholar-athuleetes pointed out once, during a totally legal and unrelated matter a few years back, You dont have to be no scientific rocket to figure that out.

what I DESPISE about razorback sports is what happens in situations like these. You tell me with a straight face that those 3 boys accused of rape will be treated the same way my son would be, had he done anything so stupid, which would cause his mother to behead him anyway if she determined he was guilty. (If more mothers would do that, it would certainly save some legal costs to the public.)

You tell me they won't have real live Fateville defense lawyers pop up and offer to defend them for free, whereas my son and probably yours, too, would be stuck with the next available public defender. and THEN maybe I will consider being a razorback fan again. I dont have ten thousand dollars to hire a good lawyer, do you????

These guys are not held responsible to the same standards as ordinary citizens, at least in my opinion, and that's what ruined being a Hog fan for me, after at least 30 years. That, plus a Nutt's constant grandstanding, wringing his straw hat and crying to Daddy Frank. THAT got on my last sports nerve too. I have no respect for their programs because of incidents like this.

KFSM is reporting that no charges will be filed against the basketball players due to lack of evidence.

http://www.kfsm.com/news/kfsm-news-basketballplayers,0,7126418.story

This one was reported and investigated but will not be prosecuted. Big surprise there. Especially if you consider that they were athletes.

You know what might help prosecuters nationwide and put an end to rape culture? If they didn't operate from the assumption that women are always in a constant state of 'yes'. See, if you don't have exactly 253 eyewitnesses that can testify that the victim said no, then obviously no rape occured.

Rape in any way, shape, or form is unacceptable, period. That is not what I want to address.

The treatment of athletes is another topice here. I would say it is a two way street as far as that goes. Let's say that tina's son and a Razorback athlete were both arrested for minor in possession of an adult beverage. Would they be treated the same? Yes, both would have to appear in court and do some community service. But, the athlete would have their picture in the paper, be talked about on the news, and discussed ad naseum on the radio. That is the price you pay when you are a big time athlete, but you also get good representation when needed. You get some good with the bad. All things considered, I would still rather be tina's son without the $10,000 or the high dollar lawyer, and without the opportunity for "face time."

Max, it ain't Frank Broyles, but it ain't Terry Long either. Guy goes by Jeff.

We keep talking about assumptions here in the "rape culture."

But remember, the assumption in a criminal case is that the defendant is innocent until proven guilty.

This goes for rapes too.

Why does my "things that make you go hmmmm" radar go off whenever I read RAPE and JOCKS and NO CHARGES FILED?

Reads as if a freshman got a crash course on education.

Two things that one can not prove is that one is not racist and the other is that sex was consensual.

With this in mind I have found the only defense is to not allow myself to be in situations where I can be accused of either.

Now that I am 50 that is relatively easy to do but back in my teens and twenties I placed myself in many situations that would have undermined my defense.

Mouse,

Could there ever be an instance where claims of RAPE against JOCKS could be unjustified? If so it would be fair to turn down your radar antil further evidence is available.

Any*mouse you're crackin me up...but for different reasons..just that choice of words plus the telling of a
"sordid account."

I suppose I sneaked away too many of my uncle's True Detective magazines when I was 14, but I do so love
"sordid accounts." Mario Puzo became rich and famous from sordid accounts. He could write'em.

.

Anyone remember that men's lacrosse team a few years back and the rape case involved? And remember the outcome of that?

Just saying...

Very sad, all the way around.

Just wondering: Suppose Coach Pelphrey suspends or dismisses the players involved for breaking a Do Right rule, or for "Conduct Unbecoming a Razorback"? (Okay, I admit that last one is aspirational)

And suppose this discipline led to even more losses this season than we all expect?

Would the administration say, in effect, "Since Coach Pelphrey is not clairvoyant and cannot predict when players who have no past criminal records will make stupid decisions, all he can do is punish those choices vigorously. This we expect of him. He has done so in this case, thereby affecting the team's record. Under these circumstances, we applaud his efforts and will be offering a contract extension."

I am really, really not trying to make a point. I am just wondering. Seems that would be the fair thing to do, though. If Coach dismisses/suspends them. And if they are key players.

Jesus, folks, if the prosecutors can't find evidence, there must not be evidence. I'd hate like hell for ANYBODY to be charged when there's no evidence. And why all the knee-jerking bias against athletes? Duke lacrosse, anyone?

Moreover, let's remember what UA's Chancellor David Gearhart said to the Arkansas Press Association back in July about keeping things in perspective. He suggested that the press and everybody else remember that the student athletes who actually DO get into trouble are a DISTINCT minority of the UA student-athlete population which numbers only 460 out of a total student body of 19,000.

Hey TAP, see above comment...innocent until proven guilty.

Using your reasoning why not just kick them out of the University.

I am not suggesting that the players are guilty of a crime, Friend Durango (How've you been?)

I am suggesting that Coach Pelphrey might want to send a message that group sex, or wanton sex, or public (20 people?) sex presents a great likelihood of discovery and susequent embarrassment to the program (not to mention possible criminal complaints). He may want to have his players think that even if such things are legal, they should be avoided -- on pain of discipline by the athletic department.

Hey Elwood.

I wasn't clear. I don't mean to suggest that Coach *should* punish them. (Although I have outlined some reasons why he might.) I don't have enough facts.

My real question was -- since so many claim that colleges have no control over athletics and refuse to impose discipline, would UA back Pelphrey if he *did* chose to impose discipline, and this in turn meant another dismal season?

And I was wondering if that circumstance would be a good measure of the university's commitment to great character within its athletic programs.

Just wondering.

"what I DESPISE about razorback sports is what happens in situations like these. " by: tina

AMEN, tina!
'I like Razorback sports, it's his fan club I don't like!'

Uh, durango...those of us who've been playing close attention to the way this country has historically and legally dismissed rape as being relatively not a 'big deal' know that there are a LOT more rapists walking free than there are innocent victims of false rape charges (like the Duke incident). Does that mean we should forgo due process or in any way single out individuals before a court and evidence find them guilty? No. No one on this thread is arguing that the athletes should be thrown in jail without proper evidence...sheesh. But after a lifetime of watching athletes get away with outrageous crimes against women simply because our culture values their athletic abilities more than a woman's right to be free from assault...we're NOT out on a limb when he hear athletes, rape and cover-up.

My radar's going to, any mouse!

All is good in the Durango household, TAP, and I'm betting the same is true in yours, even with Lady Temple away at school. Whoops, hope that didn't make ya tear-up!

Just to be clear, my friend, I didn't think you were suggesting anybody was guilty of anything. In fact, I didn't see your post until mine appeared. I must have been typing while you were posting. Great minds and all that!

>> would UA back Pelphrey if he *did* chose to impose discipline, and this in turn meant another dismal season?<<

Shizzzz! How many posts until you GET IT, TAP?

What part of "innocent until proven guilty" do you have the most trouble with?
You're asking the coach to do what legal authorities have refused due to a lack of evidence.

A young woman can embarrass the hell out of her self and who's to pay for that?

How many women can you prove that you have not raped?
Senseless? Yes.

.

"My radar's going to, any mouse!"

That's the thing...chicks have heard this so many times before, does not mean anything happened, but we have a reason to be wary.
We have also heard:
"she asked for it..
look at how she was dressed...
she wanted it...
I can't help it, I was drunk/she was drunk...
She was no virgin...
she changed her mind...
well what did she expect when she went to his dorm room...
they are good boys from good families...
shes a stripper so she can't be raped"
it goes on and on.

And anyone who thinks that jocks in the South get away with crimes that say my son who lives in a double wide would be sitting in prison for, then you just are just not living in reality.
Yes, I hate the worship of athletes on the high school and college level and the way, in many ways, the rules that apply to the rest of us just do not apply to them.
I probably need to just back away....

Here you are TAP. A special provision from UA's Human Resources staff handbook:

"Sexual Assault

(Adopted by the Campus Council, September 23, 1993)
"University Judicial System

"When appropriate, the University Police (Department of Public Safety) or any member of the University community may refer allegations of sexual assault to the University judicial system. The judicial system, which is described in the Undergraduate Studies Catalog, provides a just and equitable process for dealing with alleged infractions by students of University rules, regulations, or laws. The system is informal and non adversarial, and is intended to educate students, to help them make responsible decisions, and to be accountable for their actions.

In some instances, it may be appropriate for University faculty and staff members to use the University's formal grievance procedures to address grievances related to allegations of sexual assault. The faculty grievance procedure is described in the University of Arkansas Faculty Handbook.. The staff grievance procedure is described in the Staff Handbook. "
.

I cared more about UofA roundball before Sutton came, when you could walk down the hill from Campus to Barnhill and buy a ticket ten minutes before the game and get center court three rows up.

Now it's like a having a poorly run halfway house for parolees next door and they still don't win enough games to make up for the problems.

I'm glad it has become the University of Fayetteville, they seem to be getting what they have wanted.

zelda, you've misread me if you think I've suggested that women are out on a limb when they "hear athletes, rape and cover-up." But I do understand what you're saying and I'm aware of the history behind your words. The chief purpose of my post was to remind people of Chancellor Gearhart's remarks which I think are worth repeating, even now: There are 19,000 students at the UA. Of those, there are only 460 student athletes. Only a tiny fraction of those 460 athletes ever commit a criminal act of any kind. I have no way of knowing for sure, zelda, but untill somebody can prove otherwise, I suspect the UA statistics might apply to the entire universe of student athletes which, if so, would be yet another one of those "inconvenient truths."

The Duke rape case was a huge setback for women in the grand scheme. I'm thrilled those particular boys were exonerated because they were obviously innocent and targeted by a power-hungry (now disbarred) DA and an opportunistic, lying client.

Unfortunately, that national case has set the bar even higher for women to prove rape.

Multiple semen samples found in her vagina won't prove a thing. (Hey, "she was willing"..."she wanted to pull our train'').

If a girl is at a fraternity party drinking, dancing and having fun, she'll have to be beaten to within an inch of her life (in addition to the rape) to be taken seriously. Now, that's more than sad for women.

I'm not passing judgment on these UA players either way. However, they do have a "god complex'' because of the fan base, which leads to an "entitlement'' behavior.

If it was "consensual'', I have a problem with funding scholarships for three guys who want to take turns f**king the same girl.

Call me a prude, but that's just me.

Why doesn't the ImParTial City of Fayetteville create a Grand Jury and see what the citizens have to say on this obvious rape and sexual abuse of an 18 year old girl? I think we all know why. God forbid that the pathetic Rzrbcks losing b-ball team might be treated like the rest of us. This is not the first time this school has had a gang rape occur. I remember the time the poor girl was openly attacked by that wonderful liberal Jim, (the Tyson Head attorney) and called everything under the sun by this "progressive". If anyone wants to compare the treatment of the white lacrosse players at Duke who were dealing with a black crack whore and who were hung in the national media and also by the now disgraced local DA.
The black players get to pull a BJ train on a white girl and - she was asking for it, so forget it. The bad white boys at Duke forced that black crack whore, oh that's right they didn't do anything at all to her. We have done a 360 in the US, where the white girls are sexually lynched and the white boys are hung from the telephone poles by an ambitious DA and a black crack whore. (I doubt that the white wimps in the media will ever let the truth of this statement out - someone might be offended. Who knows, maybe even the white sports fans who offer up their women to be sexual receptacles for any rzrback who wants to throw them in the garbage dumpster.

Jeez, Danny...late for your KKK meeting?

Okay eLwood. I am slow but not hopeless.

I get it.

Do you get that I was saying -- based on the statements of the athletes themselves -- there was group or public sex (20 people in the room and a crime) and that such conduct could reflect poorly on the University, and might be grounds for discipline? Or might not?

Ooops... and *not* a crime. I just think Jim Harris of Arkansas Sports 360 makes points worth considering, at the link.

and that a coach whose program is under scrutiny for repeated lapses of conduct might choose to hold the student-athletes who are the "face" of the University to a higher standard of conduct than in the University Handbook, at least with respect to the privilege (not right) of representing the UA?

I hear ya, durango, but 'even' if those statistics are accurate there's crime and then there's crime. (Universities are NOTORIOUS for not reporting diddly; and there are numerous documented ways they hide crimes on their campuses.) Rape/assault against a woman (or man, too, of course) is hardly comparable to stealing, using drugs, etc. And when you add universities historical penchant for taking care of their athletes AT ALL COST...it's definitely an 'Inconvenient Truth.' Time after time universities (and their predominately male Boards) have chosen to protect their male athletes at the expense of vulnerable women. There is ABSOLUTELY no comparing the number of women who've made false charges against the number of women who've been raped and received NO justice...especially at universities that worship their athletes.

zelda, I can't find a thing in your 8:46 post with which I disagree. Indeed, there's crime and THEN there's rape and assault of women (and men, too, as you point out). Except for cold-bloodied murder, it doesn't get any more hideous than rape/assault, in my not-so-humble opinion. Without question, what collegiate sports need are more coaches like John McDonnell about whom Jim Harris wrote in the article TAP linked above. An excerpt, if I may:

"John McDonnell, who accumulated 40 various track and field championships while coaching the University of Arkansas, had one steadfast rule for his team: Embarrass this program and you're history. This is why you rarely if ever heard a negative peep out of McDonnell's track program in his more than three decades in charge. The message, as McDonnell saw it, was to lay down the law with his athletes from the beginning. The new ones would hear it from the old ones, and so forth. You didn't do anything to get your name in the paper and make people talk in a negative light about Arkansas track. Meanwhile, McDonnell's program, which began with a focus on long-distance runners, several pulled in from his native Ireland, reached a point where it could attract the better sprinters and jumpers in the U.S., and they all knew that you didn't wander out and night and do something stupid to embarrass the program or you wouldn't be a part of it."

The John McDonnells of the world can't prevent all the problems and grief that result from poor (even moronic) decisions young males make, but they can make a huge dent in them. So can fathers and mothers who take the time to teach their boys the difference between right and wrong. I have little doubt that that's why neither I nor my son (nor yours) would ever have found ourselves caught up in group sex/rape allegations of this kind.